DOO now coming to Sweden

[SthlmDriver]

I've been driving the commuter trains in Stockholm for over a decade. We've always had a guard on board. The service is operated by Chinese MTR and now they are removing the guard from the trains, leaving me alone on board with 600ft of train and over 1.500 passengers.

I'd be happy to hear about your experiences with working like this and how stuff like evacuations, fire, torn powerline and people with disabilities have been solved, or, realistically, tried to be solved.

Our union is fighting hard against this, but MTR has been controlling the narrative by saying that the system works great in the UK.

Any input would be much appreciated.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Most London commuter trains (and London Underground/Overground services) are DOO.
The first DOO line was in 1983 (St Pancras-Bedford), and spread to almost all commuter lines radiating from London terminals (not Euston or Waterloo), extending to 100km or so from London and with some journeys over 200km across London.
The latest DOO example is our new Elizabeth Line (which happens to be operated by MTR) which links lines east and west of London through a busy core section.
Recent partial-DOO schemes have been of a hybrid nature where there is another member of staff on board to assist passengers with their journeys, but not operating the train which is left to the driver.
There is great union resistance to more DOO in the UK, from both drivers and conductors, and it is one of the key issues in the current industrial disputes on the railway.
The safety authorities have approved DOO operation, as long as the trains and infrastructure support it (which most do these days).
There has been at least one high-profile incident with DOO trains, involving a train losing power in a tunnel and some passengers forcing an exit onto the track.
From what I recall the train operator (not MTR) was to blame for not rescuing the train quicker.

I'm sure the professionals on here will have more information on how well or otherwise DOO operates in the UK.
Welcome to the forum by the way.
SL seemed to me to have a great network and trains when I used them over the years.

 

[Craig1122]

Access for people with disabilities certainly hasn't been solved and a user group is pushing court action as the operators appear to be in breach of the law. "Our data reveals that DOO has created ‘no go areas’ for accessible rail travel at a total of 292 stations across Greater London and the south-east of England, representing over 11% of Britain’s stations."

Association of British Commuters

abcommuters.com

With regards to evacuations it tends to take a very long time. In this incident task overload for the driver was identified as a contributing factor when passengers were evacuated to a live track. In essence the overload was having to deal with the passengers on board as well as trying to rectify a technical fault.

"Dozens of passengers could have died after they were told to evacuate a London Overground train close to a live railway line, a report has found.

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) blamed miscommunication between the driver and control room staff.

A delay in reaching a clear understanding about what should be done "contributed to stress and task overload of the driver, which affected his decision making", the RAIB said."

Evacuated London Overground passengers 'could have died'

About 80 people, including children, had to walk 30m alongside a live railway line, a report finds.

www.bbc.com

Here's another example. This may of course have still happened even with a second member of staff given that it went on for so long. But having someone else to reassure and manage passengers certainly seems to help

"A catalogue of errors led to passengers walking alongside live electrified rails as they evacuated a Southeastern train stranded by snow last year, a report by investigators has revealed.

The train was a busy commuter service and the onboard toilet was out of service.

No plans had been put in place for evacuating the passengers, and customers took matters in their own hands by forcing their way off the train."

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2019-03-27/investigation-finds-commuters-walked-alongside-an-electrified-third-rail-after-evacuating-a-train-stuck-in-snow

This subject has been debated many times on here and I'm sure you'll find strong opinions on both sides of the debate.

 

[Wyrleybart]

My advice is to read up on the Lac Megantic disaster in Canada and how Ed Burkhardt took DOO (NP) from EWS in the UK and thought it would be a good idea in Canada. That is what can happen if you operate clapped out locos with very poor timekeeping in a "down to the bone" company.

You really need to read it to understand what actually happened but it was shocking.

Obviously, they are proposing DOOP for you guys which is not quite the same.

Here is the Wiki link

Lac-Mégantic rail disaster - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Carlisle]

My advice is to read up on the La Majantic disaster in Canada and how Ed Burkhardt took DOO (NP) from EWS in the UK and thought it would be a good idea in Canada. That is what can happen if you operate clapped out locos with very poor timekeeping in a "down to the bone" company.

You really need to read it to understand what actually happened but it was shocking.

Obviously, they are proposing DOOP for you guys which is not quite the same.

Agreed the clapped out hardware was a significant factor however the official enquiry couldn’t conclude whether a second person would’ve prevented that tragedy or not & a few similar runaways have occurred since on guarded trains.

 

[zwk500]

My advice is to read up on the La Majantic disaster in Canada and how Ed Burkhardt took DOO (NP) from EWS in the UK and thought it would be a good idea in Canada. That is what can happen if you operate clapped out locos with very poor timekeeping in a "down to the bone" company.

The key point here is that DOO is only one part of the system. It's perfectly possible to have absolutely safe DOO if it's used appropriately and in concert with other operating practices to ensure the safety. The problems come when you start propping windows open up cutting your own holes in the cheese to make it easier (to brutalise 2 popular analogies for systematic failures).

DOO for freight operation is also very common in the UK, and incidents on freight operation are very rare, and a vanishingly small proportion of them would have been prevented or mitigated by the presence of a 2nd person on the train.

 

[ScotGG]

In parts of London it's very easy to not pay for journeys on some DOO routes after on-board staff removed if there's no widespread staffing at stations to barrier them and/or roving ticket checks.

Often seems a false economy.

 

[Halish Railway]

So no more guards operating the doors from the platform by use of a button and chord from one of the none-driving cabs.

 

[66701GBRF]

My advice is to read up on the La Majantic disaster in Canada and how Ed Burkhardt took DOO (NP) from EWS in the UK and thought it would be a good idea in Canada. That is what can happen if you operate clapped out locos with very poor timekeeping in a "down to the bone" company.

You really need to read it to understand what actually happened but it was shocking.

Obviously, they are proposing DOOP for you guys which is not quite the same.

What would the second person have done that would have stopped that incident? Commercial airline also operate with two pilots yet accidents still happen.

 

[Wyrleybart]

What would the second person have done that would have stopped that incident? Commercial airline also operate with two pilots yet accidents still happen.

Erm. Secured the train properly at the top of the hill.

When the fire department shut the remaining engine down because it was smoking it ceased creating air to keep the brakes on. Brakes eventually came off and the train rolled down the hill and killed 39 people in a horrendous fire, but had the train had all it's parking brakes applied, and had the train not run late causing the driver / engineer to run out of hours blah blah blah.

I am assuming that DB Cargo have the last maroon and gold locos in the world since the Australian, New Zealand and Estonian operations ceased.

 

[AlterEgo]

What would the second person have done that would have stopped that incident? Commercial airline also operate with two pilots yet accidents still happen.

I do fear we are going to go back over old ground but two person operation is certainly not a panacea. This was done to death years ago on here to the point I cannot really be bothered to talk about it any more, but there was little data to convince me that two person operation, and a division of safety duties, was safer in a properly controlled environment.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Done properly there’s no reason why DOO is unsafe in itself. The issue is whether it’s done properly- whether the driver can see the full platform properly, whether there is suitable control staff immediately available when something goes wrong, etc.

I’m not generally in favour of DOO because it normally comes from a money-saving perspective, meaning the investment in equipment and control staff is also approached from a cost perspective. But the problem there is the operator’s ethos and not DOO.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

As for Lac-Megantic, that- like Ohio- is more about US operators stripping everything back to the barest of bare minimums than anything else. I’m not sure how it’s relevant to DOO in an urban passenger setting.

 

[185]

Apparently it's perfectly safe and our dodgy safety body the RSSB will just gloss over the fact that most trap-and-drag incidents are on driver only trains but they are the minority of services in the UK.

Det är en dum idé

 

[SthlmDriver]

Most London commuter trains (and London Underground/Overground services) are DOO.
The first DOO line was in 1983 (St Pancras-Bedford), and spread to almost all commuter lines radiating from London terminals (not Euston or Waterloo), extending to 100km or so from London and with some journeys over 200km across London.
The latest DOO example is our new Elizabeth Line (which happens to be operated by MTR) which links lines east and west of London through a busy core section.
Recent partial-DOO schemes have been of a hybrid nature where there is another member of staff on board to assist passengers with their journeys, but not operating the train which is left to the driver.
There is great union resistance to more DOO in the UK, from both drivers and conductors, and it is one of the key issues in the current industrial disputes on the railway.
The safety authorities have approved DOO operation, as long as the trains and infrastructure support it (which most do these days).
There has been at least one high-profile incident with DOO trains, involving a train losing power in a tunnel and some passengers forcing an exit onto the track.
From what I recall the train operator (not MTR) was to blame for not rescuing the train quicker.

I'm sure the professionals on here will have more information on how well or otherwise DOO operates in the UK.
Welcome to the forum by the way.
SL seemed to me to have a great network and trains when I used them over the years.

In Sweden, we have separate rules for closed - circuit systems, like metro and local rail. The commuter traffic, that I drive, is under heavier rules and regulations we are sharing tracks with freight and other trains at speeds up to 200km/h. There's also a rule that an evacuation MUST be done within one hour.

What we, as drivers, mostly object to is being alone when we have a jumper in front of the train, or have a technical breakdown forcing us to run around and troubleshoot, whilst trying to keep the passengers from opening an emergency exit to walk to a bus stop or something. Also emptying trains at night at end of service. Trying to wake a unconscious person is not fun when alone.

The DOO here will be "pure". No other staff of any kind will be on board the train. Some lines takes us through areas with no roads nearby. Any assistance would take ages to arrive.

Before, the attendant (guard) had video feeds from all over the passenger spaces. We have none.

 

[matt_world2004]

In Sweden, we have separate rules for closed - circuit systems, like metro and local rail. The commuter traffic, that I drive, is under heavier rules and regulations we are sharing tracks with freight and other trains at speeds up to 200km/h. There's also a rule that an evacuation MUST be done within one hour.

What we, as drivers, mostly object to is being alone when we have a jumper in front of the train, or have a technical breakdown forcing us to run around and troubleshoot, whilst trying to keep the passengers from opening an emergency exit to walk to a bus stop or something. Also emptying trains at night at end of service. Trying to wake a unconscious person is not fun when alone.

The DOO here will be "pure". No other staff of any kind will be on board the train. Some lines takes us through areas with no roads nearby. Any assistance would take ages to arrive.

Before, the attendant (guard) had video feeds from all over the passenger spaces. We have none.

Are stations staffed? On DOO services in the UK many stations are staffed to accommodate for the lack of second staff member on board the train, some station staff are required to dispatch the train when the platform is crowded by holding up a baton or other method of communicating with the driver.

 

[SthlmDriver]

Are stations staffed? On DOO services in the UK many stations are staffed to accommodate for the lack of second staff member on board the train, some station staff are required to dispatch the train when the platform is crowded by holding up a baton or other method of communicating with the driver.

Most stations are staffed, but that is just the person selling tickets in the booth. There's none on the platforms. Trains run every 5 minutes at peak, and every 7-15 minutes for the rest of the time. Much is 4 tracks with our trains usually on the two center tracks, making spontaneous evacs a horrible thought.

 

[Balcombe]

I've been driving the commuter trains in Stockholm for over a decade. We've always had a guard on board. The service is operated by Chinese MTR and now they are removing the guard from the trains, leaving me alone on board with 600ft of train and over 1.500 passengers.

I'd be happy to hear about your experiences with working like this and how stuff like evacuations, fire, torn powerline and people with disabilities have been solved, or, realistically, tried to be solved.

Our union is fighting hard against this, but MTR has been controlling the narrative by saying that the system works great in the UK.

Any input would be much appreciated.

Just out of interest is the role of the Guard on your MTR Stockholm commuter trains the same as in the UK? So is the Guard on your trains responsible for opening the doors and closing the doors and despatching the train like in the UK? Do they check tickets and sell tickets as well like in the UK? I would be curious to know how similar it is as i know the role of the Guard can vary quite a lot depending on the country?

 

[the sniper]

In Sweden, we have separate rules for closed - circuit systems, like metro and local rail. The commuter traffic, that I drive, is under heavier rules and regulations we are sharing tracks with freight and other trains at speeds up to 200km/h. There's also a rule that an evacuation MUST be done within one hour.

That's certainly not a standard that DOO has had to contend with here.

What we, as drivers, mostly object to is being alone when we have a jumper in front of the train, or have a technical breakdown forcing us to run around and troubleshoot, whilst trying to keep the passengers from opening an emergency exit to walk to a bus stop or something. Also emptying trains at night at end of service. Trying to wake a unconscious person is not fun when alone.

The "DOO is safe" crowd don't really account for such factors, which makes most discussion on the matter rather awkward. Where I am you feel the need for two people in case one of us gets battered, but that's hard to quantify to people who haven't been in the situation, who's problem it isn't... A big thing over here also is the additional liability when doing the doors.

 

[yorkie]

... the system works great in the UK.

Put simply, it works absolutely fine.

Recent partial-DOO schemes have been of a hybrid nature where there is another member of staff on board to assist passengers with their journeys, but not operating the train which is left to the driver.

Driver Only Operation refers to the operation of the train; services that have an on board ticket inspector, on board supervisor etc are DOO

There is great union resistance to more DOO in the UK, from both drivers and conductors, and it is one of the key issues in the current industrial disputes on the railway.

Yes it's obvious Unions don't like it; swapping a Guard for a TTI/OBS etc reduces the Union's ability to obliterate the service.

Access for people with disabilities certainly hasn't been solved and a user group is pushing court action as the operators appear to be in breach of the law, details here:

Association of British Commuters

abcommuters.com

With regards to evacuations it tends to take a very long time. In this incident task overload for the driver was identified as a contributing factor when passengers were evacuated to a live track. In essence the overload was having to deal with the passengers on board as well as trying to rectify a technical fault:

Evacuated London Overground passengers 'could have died'

About 80 people, including children, had to walk 30m alongside a live railway line, a report finds.

www.bbc.com

Here's another example. This may of course have still happened even with a second member of staff given that it went on for so long. But having someone else to reassure and manage passengers certainly seems to help:

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2019-03-27/investigation-finds-commuters-walked-alongside-an-electrified-third-rail-after-evacuating-a-train-stuck-in-snow

Plenty of examples exist for trains with Guards.

This subject has been debated many times on here and I'm sure you'll find strong opinions on both sides of the debate.

Indeed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

My advice is to read up on the La Majantic disaster in Canada and how Ed Burkhardt took DOO (NP) from EWS in the UK and thought it would be a good idea in Canada. That is what can happen if you operate clapped out locos with very poor timekeeping in a "down to the bone" company.

You really need to read it to understand what actually happened but it was shocking.

Obviously, they are proposing DOOP for you guys which is not quite the same.

What's that got to do with the matter in hand?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

I do fear we are going to go back over old ground but two person operation is certainly not a panacea. This was done to death years ago on here to the point I cannot really be bothered to talk about it any more, but there was little data to convince me that two person operation, and a division of safety duties, was safer in a properly controlled environment.

Indeed, very true.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

Apparently it's perfectly safe and our dodgy safety body the RSSB will just gloss over the fact that most trap-and-drag incidents are on driver only trains but they are the minority of services in the UK.

Det är en dum idé

Plenty of incidents have occurred with Guards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

Most stations are staffed, but that is just the person selling tickets in the booth. There's none on the platforms. Trains run every 5 minutes at peak, and every 7-15 minutes for the rest of the time. Much is 4 tracks with our trains usually on the two center tracks, making spontaneous evacs a horrible thought.

That's a really outdated method of working that is not going to last long, with the move towards e-tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

Just out of interest is the role of the Guard on your MTR Stockholm commuter trains the same as in the UK? So is the Guard on your trains responsible for opening the doors and closing the doors and despatching the train like in the UK? Do they check tickets and sell tickets as well like in the UK? I would be curious to know how similar it is as i know the role of the Guard can vary quite a lot depending on the country?

The UK sees a range of operations; Guards don't always open and close doors and TOCs such as SWR have non-commercial Guards who can't check/issue tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

The "DOO is safe" crowd ...

Given the huge numbers of people carried on the likes of LU, LO, GTR etc, the majority of GB passenger journeys are surely done on DOO services; are you seriously suggesting these aren't safe? Rail is a very safe mode of transport and it's disappointing to see someone in the industry undermine that.

 

[the sniper]

Given the huge numbers of people carried on the likes of LU, LO, GTR etc, the majority of GB passenger journeys are surely done on DOO services; are you seriously suggesting these aren't safe? Rail is a very safe mode of transport and it's disappointing to see someone in the industry undermine that.

I'm not sure why you omitted the rest of the post very selectively quoted, but in doing so it does essentially confirm the point I made in that paragraph...

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure why you omitted the rest of the post very selectively quoted, but in doing so it does essentially confirm the point I made in that paragraph...

I was responding specifically to this point; there is no point quoting the entirety of all the posts I am responding to. Links are provided so anyone can see the full post if they wish.

Do you have anything constructive to say? If you disagree with what I wrote, can you say what part you are disagreeing with is, and what is your alternative view? I am all for a constructive debate, but your posts appear to be anything but.

(Note: you also didn't quote the entirety of the post that you are replying to; not that there is any requirement to! A key point of the quote system is that you can indicate exactly which part of a post you are referring to; there is no need to re-quote the entirety of posts which are there for all to see)

 

[the sniper]

I was responding specifically to this point; there is no point quoting the entirety of all the posts I am responding to. Links are provided so anyone can see the full post if they wish.

It completely ignored the point made, which was in response to what the OP said, which I quoted. There was no point made in the five words you quoted, which you took out of context to try and make your own point. I'm glad we're doing this in public for once though.

Do you have anything constructive to say? If you disagree with what I wrote, can you say what part you are disagreeing with is, and what is your alternative view? I am all for a constructive debate, but your posts appear to be anything but.

Which weren't relevant to the issues raised by the OP, which I quoted, which is what I addressed.

(Note: you also didn't quote the entirety of the post that you are replying to; not that there is any requirement to! A key point of the quote system is that you can indicate exactly which part of a post you are referring to; there is no need to re-quote the entirety of posts which are there for all to see)

Are you joking? I quoted the part that was addressed to me, no context was omitted.

 

[yorkie]

It completely ignored the point made, which was in response to what the OP said, which I quoted. There was no point made in the five words you quoted, which you took out of context to try and make your own point. I'm glad we're doing this in public for once though.

OK so can you please explain what you meant by what you said?

If your point was not to insinuate that DOO is in any way not safe, why did you say what you did?

Which weren't relevant to the issues raised by the OP, which I quoted, which is what I addressed.

Can you elaborate; what wasn't relevant?

I've asked you a question, but you're not answering it.

Are you joking? I quoted the part that was addressed to me, no context was omitted.

I don't understand your objection to the concept that people can quote a particular part of the post that they are addressing. If it assists you in some way, here is the full quote (this time, instead of just quoting the part I am questioning you on, I will quote the whole thing, with the relevant part in bold):

The "DOO is safe" crowd don't really account for such factors, which makes most discussion on the matter rather awkward. Where I am you feel the need for two people in case one of us gets battered, but that's hard to quantify to people who haven't been in the situation, who's problem it isn't... A big thing over here also is the additional liability when doing the doors.

Can you please explain what you mean by this phrase, and are you in any way suggesting that DOO is unsafe?

If you are not saying DOO is unsafe, then simply say so.

If you are, then can you justify your claims?

 

[the sniper]

Can you please explain what you mean by this phrase, and are you in any way suggesting that DOO is unsafe?

That those who argue "DOO is safe" have little interest in what the OP was discussing, which is what it meant for them as a Driver. It doesn't need to be explained if you read the whole post. You've subsequently provided great supporting evidence though.

 

[yorkie]

That those who argue "DOO is safe" have little interest in what the OP was discussing, which is what it meant for them as a Driver. It doesn't need to be explained if you read the whole post. You've subsequently provided great supporting evidence though.

So you are you suggesting DOO is unsafe. Or not?

If you are, please provide your supporting evidence.

If you are not, why did you use those words?

You are the one who appears to be making a claim that a safe method of operation is unsafe; the onus is on you to present your evidence, if that is what you are claiming.

If it is not what you are claiming, then don't beat about the bush and make your position clear.

 

[the sniper]

So you are you suggesting DOO is unsafe. Or not?

If you are, please provide your supporting evidence.

If you are not, why did you use those words?

I think the point is clear for everyone to see.

If you want to have yet another generic debate about the general safety of DOO, maybe start another thread?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

Edit: In response to what was added subsequently:

You are the one who appears to be making a claim that a safe method of operation is unsafe; the onus is on you to present your evidence, if that is what you are claiming.

If it is not what you are claiming, then don't beat about the bush and make your position clear.

I think for Drivers working under DOO is less safe, but that it isn't most peoples problem.

 

[yorkie]

I think the point is clear for everyone to see.

If you want to have yet another generic debate about the general safety of DOO, maybe start another thread?

You are the one who appeared to be suggesting that DOO is not safe; I've asked you to clarify if this is what you are saying and you're just beating about the bush.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

Edit: In response to what was added subsequently:



I think for Drivers working under DOO is less safe, but that it isn't most people's problem.

Can you clarify what you mean by this? I'm all for constructive debate but you are not clarifying your position.

Also you did say earlier:

The "DOO is safe" crowd don't really account for such factors, which makes most discussion on the matter rather awkward. Where I am you feel the need for two people in case one of us gets battered, but that's hard to quantify to people who haven't been in the situation, who's problem it isn't... A big thing over here also is the additional liability when doing the doors.

Are you actually suggesting DOO is not safe? Or was this not intended to be taken as a serious comment? Do you withdraw the comment? I don't understand why you've still not provided clarification; this could have been dealt with very swiftly if you had clarified your position.

 

[Facing Back]

I think for Drivers working under DOO is less safe, but that it isn't most peoples problem.

by less safe do you mean increased liability for the driver?

 

[Parjon]

Our union is fighting hard against this, but MTR has been controlling the narrative by saying that the system works great in the UK.

Any input would be much appreciated.

Funny. Normally the Chinese government (of which MTR and any other Chinese state and many "private" companies are an inseparable part) are scathing of anything done here in the UK.

The safety aspect of DOO is used heavily in the UK to defend against its expansion. In reality it's only the strength of the union that prevents it.

Given the Chinese government's despicable and deliberate alignment with an inhuman genocidal dictatorship (and it's vicious war of aggression against civilians), perhaps MTR aren't as in control of the narrative as you think. Should they really have any say in how Swedish society should be run? Are their profits really a priority?

Perhaps this aspect of the narrative needs to be pointed out to public and politicians alike...

 

[the sniper]

by less safe do you mean increased liability for the driver?

Both in terms of liability and circumstances that you could find yourself in, such as dealing with disorderly passengers alone, potentially on trains that are otherwise empty, like described by the OP.