DOO and early running trains

[3141]

Define "interested in the job beyond just doing what it says on a bit of paper that tells them what diagram they're working at that moment." Do you mean be professional, courteous and do the job to the best of their ability? Then that is about 95% of working people (not just train drivers).

That's a good suggestion about what I might mean, but it leads to a need to define “professional”.

I’d say it means being aware of the impact of what you’re doing on the people who receive the service you provide; therefore prepared to modify what you do (within the allowable parameters) to make sure they get a good service, and to improve it where practicable; giving some thought (maybe sometimes outside working hours) about how best to do the job, or how it might be done better, or produce a better result for the people who use it. That could refer to users generally, or to individuals in particular situations.

Example: I read a couple of years ago that FGW had made some modification at Swindon about precisely where HSTs stopped, or where passengers were encouraged to stand and wait for trains, in order to speed up boarding times. (I don’t remember the exact details.) They made the change after consultation with the train despatchers who suggested what could be done to improve things. I think you could call the despatchers’ approach “professional”.

Another definition of a professional person I once heard was “someone who doesn’t get paid for working overtime”. It may be largely true in practice but it’s not the way I’d define the word.

But why constrict your comment solely to those providing a public service? The guy who cuts my hair does a top job, but he does nothing but moan about having to be at work, being self employed, having to work six days a week and being away from his family. Do I take issue with him? No. He cuts my hair. That is all I expect him to do.

Well, I certainly wouldn't call him courteous if he moans to his customers all the time!

My comment doesn’t need to be restricted to the public service. I’ve known the example of a car salesman who thought about different ways of financing a purchase to find the one most beneficial to the customer. (He also gained some commission for himself, of course, and helped his company reach its sales targets. Useful all round.) A person working for a recruitment company which supplied contractors to a pharmaceutical factory, who worked till 8.30 one evening to sort out the contractors’ weekly pay because she’d realised that the following day, when the pay was normally calculated, she was going to be asked to do several other things and unless she got that job done the contractors wouldn’t get paid.

I’d call these actions professional.

I wouldn’t apply “professional” to someone who not only says he’s no idea if he’s driving the last train of the day, but tries to excuse himself by bringing up red herrings about whether he should be expected to know the timetable for his entire network off by heart, or be interested in track access contracts, or scan the horizon with binoculars to spot any latecomers – things that no-one has suggested drivers need to do. All of these irrelevant ideas have appeared on the last few pages.

I don't know what you do (did/want to do) for a living, but it might come as a shock to learn that for about 95% of the working population their professional interest ends the moment they walk out of the door. Why should train drivers be any different? Actually, I think I can partially answer that one myself. There is an expectation from certain parts of the enthusiast fraternity that because they (the enthusiast) find railways interesting and a stimulating conversation piece, that those who work on the railways must also follow suite. What is exciting and interesting to one person is dull and workaday to the next. When you've had ten hours of vibrations and going deaf on a 66 (or any other traction for that matter), the absolute last thing you want to debate is the merits or otherwise of GM's finest.

Completely understandable. As I said in post 96 I don’t expect drivers to be interested in railways. There are clearly some varying views about what being interested in the job should mean.

I'm not shocked to be told that for a large proportion of the working population their interest ends at the end of their day. "Professional interest"? In my experience as a local government education officer more than just 5% of people maintained an interest after they'd gone home, but experiences differ. I still meet former colleagues fifteen years after I've retired, and they still do what I reckon we can call a professional job.
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Yawn.

Oh HarleyD, I do hope you didn't lose yet another minute of your life by reading my previous post. Please don't read this one.

 

[ComUtoR]

I wouldn’t apply “professional” to someone who not only says he’s no idea if he’s driving the last train of the day, but tries to excuse himself by bringing up red herrings about whether he should be expected to know the timetable for his entire network off by heart, or be interested in track access contracts, or scan the horizon with binoculars to spot any latecomers – things that no-one has suggested drivers need to do. All of these irrelevant ideas have appeared on the last few pages.

No one is trying to excuse themselves. They are merely trying to provide real evidence as to how employee mentality is.

red herrings about whether he should be expected to know the timetable for his entire network off by heart​

This actually happens. Passengers will come up to you and ask for train information about far flung destinations that often aren't even on the network. There IS an expectation about how much we should know and many times I have heard the phrase "well you work here..." and not just as a railway employee. It certainly isn't a red herring whatsoever.

I'd also like to address the reality of diagrams and short term planning. I know precisely when the last train for my depot is. I also know the calling pattern and the train length. That is me being "professional" and well within my expectation for every Driver at my depot.

Serious question. Do you honestly believe that that professionalism should extend to the various other depots on my TOC and for me to know which is the last train for every route ?

Evidence to consider. I can be told to take any service that I sign the routes and traction for. Anecdotally; last year I was asked to take a unit down to a station which I sign at a godforsaken hour in the morning and knowing it was a very unusual move I queried it. NOBODY knew any details and even the Signaler wasn't clear on how or why I was taking the service. As far as I knew the traction wasn't even route certified (which was why I queried it) I certainly wouldn't be able to tell you if it was the last train of the day.

There can be an STP diagram released at a moments notice where that diagram is extended to cover engineering works or "additional" are sent out and that "Last train" is no longer the last train or for whatever reason its not running that day. This weekend at my depot some diagrams have been extended and cancelled due to STP running. Because a Driver rather loudly announced that he had been extended till 02xx I knew about the turn being extended. Considering we have no booked services that run that late I have no idea (and neither does the Driver until they book on tomorrow) what service that will be making. Again, serious question. Does that make me "unprofessional ?" Re-add that that same scenario is happening across each depot affected will that also make me "unprofessional" if I'm not aware if it is the last train of the day or not ?

There truly is an expectation of some people that employees (not specifically railway ones) should know X, Y and Z. The "last train of the day" was brought up and implied that Drivers should know they are taking it. Reasons why we may not know are very relevant.

The whole late running passenger thing can be put down (in part) to poor infrastructure. There are many locations where the view from the cab window is highly restrictive. I cannot see you running down the slope or clambering over the bridge. There is a large portion of the platform where you are not visible in the monitors (DOO) so even if your standing on the platform I still may have no clue you are there. There is still an expectation from the passenger that you close the doors deliberately. I'm too polite to list the names I have been called over the years. Feel free to take umbrage over being left behind and make a complaint to the TOC's but also be well aware of the FACT that I may have simply not seen you.

3141 you have posted with an open mind and although the portion of your post I have quoted comes across as belittling and dismissive I would hope that you can see there are reasons for why things may or may not appear relevant to you. The railway is a horrifically fragmented place and different departments act in a very insular way. Communication is almost non existent and improvements move at a glacial pace. Sadly this impacts the passenger.

There are many personality types on the railway and some care and some don't PERSONALLY I try to be "professional" that does appear to clash with expectations from others. If your genuinely interested what that level of professionalism is then feel free to PM me. However on an open forum I'm limited to something more generic.

Last point (just thought of it) The railway is the largest employer I have worked for (not including retail chains) Maybe its is because there is such a huge number of employees that the extremes of attitudes are more prevalent. Many do treat is as a McJob

 

[CockneySparrow]

On the last eastbound GOBLIN train last night, brisk running meant we were early leaving every intermediate station while I was on the train.

Sample: doors closed at 23.15.49 for the 23.17 departure from Crouch Hill with train moving off a couple of seconds later.

Guards used to hold train until correct departure time. Some might say passengers need to get there early but this can't be acceptable for a last train.

Anyone else noticed the same problem when there are no guards?

Probably saw nobody else was about or likely to make the doors within a minute so he pulled out

 

[Carlisle]

Example: I read a couple of years ago that FGW had made some modification at Swindon about precisely where HSTs stopped, or where passengers were encouraged to stand and wait for trains, in order to speed up boarding times. (I don’t remember the exact details.) They made the change after consultation with the train despatchers who suggested what could be done to improve things.

Well done to the staff ,however Mr Green and co introduced almost exactly the same system on Inter-City about 25 years earlier

 

[notadriver]

Well when I was on the buses I had a reasonable knowledge of bus timetables in the area I worked and I would certainly have been fully aware if I was doing the last bus on a particular route and I'd have made a point of looking out for any stragglers.

You might of course say that is slightly different as bus drivers are far more likely to be asked about timetables than train drivers.

Buses run or leave stops early on a regular basis don't they? I also think bus drivers have more freedom to answer passengers questions regarding timetables etc. If they run late they can simply drive faster (even if it means 5-10 mph over the speed limit) and they don't have to necessarily stop at every bus stop along the route.

 

[Antman]

Buses run or leave stops early on a regular basis don't they? I also think bus drivers have more freedom to answer passengers questions regarding timetables etc. If they run late they can simply drive faster (even if it means 5-10 mph over the speed limit) and they don't have to necessarily stop at every bus stop along the route.

The buses I drove didn't leave stops early.

As with trains, if buses are late due to unforseen circumstances it is just one of those things and nobody expects drivers to exceed speed limits to make up time.

 

[notadriver]

You're right. No one expects bus drivers to exceed speed limits but it's accepted common practice especially for example night buses in London and early mornings and late nights where timetables are too tight. Questions were asked when one driver always seemed to run late causing a queue of buses behind him but yet when he got his turn on his last trip he drove like a demon and finished early.

I can guarantee if I got on a bus today it would at some point exceed the speed limit.

 

[Antman]

You're right. No one expects bus drivers to exceed speed limits but it's accepted common practice especially for example night buses in London and early mornings and late nights where timetables are too tight. Questions were asked when one driver always seemed to run late causing a queue of buses behind him but yet when he got his turn on his last trip he drove like a demon and finished early.

I can guarantee if I got on a bus today it would at some point exceed the speed limit.

On many bus routes in London there is very little opportunity to exceed the speed limit even if the driver wanted to do so.

 

[40129]

Scenario: Train arrives at station. Doors are released but as nobody gets on or off, they remain closed. At T-30 seconds driver/guard presses close doors button and interlock is obtained immediately.

Question: Should the train depart immediately (c.28 seconds early) or should it wait until booked time? If the latter, what should happen if a passenger arrives at T-20 seconds?

 

[W230]

Scenario: Train arrives at station. Doors are released but as nobody gets on or off, they remain closed. At T-30 seconds driver/guard presses close doors button and interlock is obtained immediately.

Question: Should the train depart immediately (c.28 seconds early) or should it wait until booked time? If the latter, what should happen if a passenger arrives at T-20 seconds?

As soon as I've got interlock and done my checks im off. It takes more than 2 seconds though!

Anyway, a passenger arriving with 20 seconds to spare has really left it just a bit too late...

 

[A-driver]

Scenario: Train arrives at station. Doors are released but as nobody gets on or off, they remain closed. At T-30 seconds driver/guard presses close doors button and interlock is obtained immediately.



Question: Should the train depart immediately (c.28 seconds early) or should it wait until booked time? If the latter, what should happen if a passenger arrives at T-20 seconds?

Sitting there is pointless though as once the doors are closed they are not going to be opened again until the next station...if they are reopened to let someone on and then closed again the train will certainly be late. Doors close up to 30secs before departure. What's the point in the train sitting there after that? Just to tease anyone who has left less than 30sec?!