DOO and early running trains

[Class377/5]

Trains ought to run on time, especially the last one, and while late running is often unavoidable early running is avoidable and shouldn’t happen.

Going of the evidence so far, it's not actually clear the train left anything other than correctly (the 30 seconds mentioned by one poster may show the train left as little as a second early). While early running should be avoided, its the actual proof train the left early in this thread that's at question.

Going on about how passengers should be on the platform in plenty of time is irrelevant and doesn’t change the fact that a train ought not to leave earlier than the timetable says.

The timetable says what time the train is supposed to going out the platform by not what time your train is.

 

[HSTEd]

Do trains have a clock on the console?
Of course with the GPS in many modern trains the train would have access to an essentially absolutely accurate clock.

 

[leytongabriel]

Well, well, well this has set some people off!
Just to get to the record straight:
i) Yes it did affect me personally.
ii)This is LOL and there are NO posters advertising that doors are shut early.
iii) The time quoted was from the station platform display, which is what us passengers go on. All the station displays at the other stations we passed said we left early too so something was out of synch.
There's also been a disparity between LUL time at Blackhorse Road which is later than LOL platform time and has been showing trains due that have left already.
iv) No I haven't written in to Tfl, my original post posed the question if this was a problem other people had noticed.
v) It is about treating last trains a little differently, and thanks to the those who have said so too.
At the risk of causing another avalanche of hostility is there a role for station security staff to help the driver know/see there are no more passengers trying to get up the stairs whilst leaving the driver in complete control of course of the decision when to close the doors and depart?

Have a good week folk and please, some of you on the railways, passengers aren't just nuisances who get in the way of smooth running and then complain.

 

[pne]

there is one part of LO where early running is authorised. Specifically the ELL northbound from Surrey Quays. The instruction to drivers on that section is to depart as soon as station duties are complete and not wait time. It did at one time apply southbound on that section too but that was subsequently changed.

Perhaps a similar instruction has been issued for other parts of the LO.

I'll leave everyone else to argue about it but there is a degree of common sense imo in doing this on the northbound ELL although not anywhere else.

What is special about the northbound ELL in that area that makes it "common sense" to leave early there?

(Honest question; I'm not familiar with traffic etc. there.)

 

[A-driver]

Well, well, well this has set some people off!
Just to get to the record straight:
i) Yes it did affect me personally.
ii)This is LOL and there are NO posters advertising that doors are shut early.
iii) The time quoted was from the station platform display, which is what us passengers go on. All the station displays at the other stations we passed said we left early too so something was out of synch.
There's also been a disparity between LUL time at Blackhorse Road which is later than LOL platform time and has been showing trains due that have left already.
iv) No I haven't written in to Tfl, my original post posed the question if this was a problem other people had noticed.
v) It is about treating last trains a little differently, and thanks to the those who have said so too.
At the risk of causing another avalanche of hostility is there a role for station security staff to help the driver know/see there are no more passengers trying to get up the stairs whilst leaving the driver in complete control of course of the decision when to close the doors and depart?

Have a good week folk and please, some of you on the railways, passengers aren't just nuisances who get in the way of smooth running and then complain.

Most of those pints have already been answered, but as for the last bit generally station staff won't assist the driver with dispatch. The driver leaves when they think it is time by their watch or whatever clock they are going on.

As for being the last train, will depends if the driver even knows it's the last one. Unless they know the timetable inside out (most won't) they wouldn't be aware their train is the last one so won't treat it differently to any other. I worked the last train out of Moorgate a few years back and had no idea it was the last one. I left on time but just as a Victoria line had come into the adjacent platform at Highbury. Just as I took power loads of people sprinted into the platform swearing as I started moving. If I had known I was driving the last train I would have waited for them but to be honest I had no idea, all I go on is my diagram, I don't spend time looking at timetables etc.

 

[Skoodle]

What is special about the northbound ELL in that area that makes it "common sense" to leave early there?

We have 16 trains per hour from Surrey Quays to Dalston. When you have trains coming from 4 different places, 3 of which occur delays from Southern (honest but true), it's causes a bottleneck at Silwood (outside Surrey Quays). Heading northbound from Surrey Quays, there are only 2 destinations, Highbury & Islington or Dalston Junction, so it's more of a turn up and go service.

The signal sections are incredibly short on the ELL "core", it creates a lot more pressure on the drivers running on restrictives for the entire journey so to ease that and the congestion it was decided to abandon the timetable between Surrey Quays to Dalston Junction.

The works at London Bridge have caused considerable knock-on delays to our services and it's now very rare we see a green in the 'core'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In terms of the last train, especially with my post above, we stick to the time. The last train of the evening will run no matter what! Last month I was the last northbound train from Clapham Junction to Highbury, there was a points failure between Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street, we were delayed by about 50 minutes but I had to sit it out and wait to run in service.

I can't speak for the GOB or North London Line, as they have a different Control to East London Line, but on our side for the last train I often see station staff on platform to see off the last train. At Highbury the platform staff there will close the gate at the top of the stairs and give us a wave that the last pasenger is coming down.

 

[pne]

We have 16 trains per hour from Surrey Quays to Dalston. When you have trains coming from 4 different places, 3 of which occur delays from Southern (honest but true), it's causes a bottleneck at Silwood (outside Surrey Quays). Heading northbound from Surrey Quays, there are only 2 destinations, Highbury & Islington or Dalston Junction, so it's more of a turn up and go service.

The signal sections are incredibly short on the ELL "core", it creates a lot more pressure on the drivers running on restrictives for the entire journey so to ease that and the congestion it was decided to abandon the timetable between Surrey Quays to Dalston Junction.

Thank you!

The 4 southern origins being Clapham Junction, Crystal Palace, West Croydon, and New Cross, I presume, with the Southern-affected ones being the first three of those?

And at 16 tph, it does seem not unreasonable if there is no perfect timetable (except for the last train or two of the day).

It's the case for the Underground, too, isn't it? Where the published timetable only lists the first few and last few trains of the day and then just a rough tph number for the rest of the time, without specifying exact times.

 

[Antman]

Thank you!

The 4 southern origins being Clapham Junction, Crystal Palace, West Croydon, and New Cross, I presume, with the Southern-affected ones being the first three of those?

And at 16 tph, it does seem not unreasonable if there is no perfect timetable (except for the last train or two of the day).

It's the case for the Underground, too, isn't it? Where the published timetable only lists the first few and last few trains of the day and then just a rough tph number for the rest of the time, without specifying exact times.

There are full timetables published for London Overground lines, there isn't that much scope for delay at the southern end with several grade seperated junctions although the London Bridge works don't help but certainly far easier to operate than the sub surface lines on London Underground.

 

[Skoodle]

Take for instance a train leaving Crystal Palace, say 0928. The Southern train from Victoria to London Bridge departs before us at 0921. If that is running a few minutes late (often is), then we are following that on a single yellow to Sydenham and beyond. We are then causing a delay to the train from West Croydon that will be behind us as well. After New Cross Gate if the train from West Croydon is late, the signaller will allow the train from Clapham Junction to proceed first. The train from West Croydon then follows that train on yellows and reds. That will then create a delay to the train that has just left New Cross. As the trains from New Cross and West Croydon terminate at Dalston they have a little more room to get back on time. The trains going through to Highbury from Crystal Palace and Clapham don't have that luxury and will end up late returning. Those trains terminating at Dalston may leave one or two minutes late and hold up the trains from Highbury which continues until they terminate. It's a vicious cycle and during the peaks can take hours to recover. That is why sometimes Control will terminate trains supposed to be heading to Highbury at Dalston.

Sorry to go off topic!

 

[Antman]

Take for instance a train leaving Crystal Palace, say 0928. The Southern train from Victoria to London Bridge departs before us at 0921. If that is running a few minutes late (often is), then we are following that on a single yellow to Sydenham and beyond. We are then causing a delay to the train from West Croydon that will be behind us as well. After New Cross Gate if the train from West Croydon is late, the signaller will allow the train from Clapham Junction to proceed first. The train from West Croydon then follows that train on yellows and reds. That will then create a delay to the train that has just left New Cross. As the trains from New Cross and West Croydon terminate at Dalston they have a little more room to get back on time. The trains going through to Highbury from Crystal Palace and Clapham don't have that luxury and will end up late returning. Those trains terminating at Dalston may leave one or two minutes late and hold up the trains from Highbury which continues until they terminate. It's a vicious cycle and during the peaks can take hours to recover. That is why sometimes Control will terminate trains supposed to be heading to Highbury at Dalston.

Sorry to go off topic!

Yes I see what you mean in fact I use this line quite regularly.

 

[talltim]

What's a GOBLIN train?

 

[Llanigraham]

Nice one, Tim!

I do wish people wouldn't use acronyms on here!

 

[3141]

Going of the evidence so far, it's not actually clear the train left anything other than correctly (the 30 seconds mentioned by one poster may show the train left as little as a second early). While early running should be avoided, its the actual proof train the left early in this thread that's at question.

The timetable says what time the train is supposed to going out the platform by not what time your train is.

Most people know that the timetable tells you what time your train is supposed to depart - and that it may be later, usually as a result of circumstances outside the control of the train crew.

But as you 've said, early running should be avoided, and no passenger can reasonably be expected to be on the platform well before the advertised time because the people operating the train might take it our early.

When TOCs like SWT state that doors may be closed up to 30 seconds before the advertised departure time, it should not follow that the train will leave 15 seconds early. I entirely accept that if the train is due to leave at 11.00.00, then the doors need to close before that. In most cases, 15 seconds beforehand is sufficient to ensure a right time departure. I.e. close the doors at 10.59.45.

If it's the last train of the day, I'd certainly try to be there early, so that if I got delayed I'd still have a chance of catching it. But if I got to the platform 45 seconds before the advertised departure time I should not find that the train had already gone.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for being the last train, will depends if the driver even knows it's the last one. Unless they know the timetable inside out (most won't) they wouldn't be aware their train is the last one so won't treat it differently to any other. ....If I had known I was driving the last train I would have waited for them but to be honest I had no idea, all I go on is my diagram, I don't spend time looking at timetables etc.

Really?

Most passengers won't "know the timetable inside out" either, but they're likely to know if they're aiming to catch the last train. And a driver who claims to be so blinkered he isn't aware of it doesn't do himself (or herself) any favours.

 

[rdeez]

Hasn't this discussion about early departures been had several times already...?

SWT - early running

Another train leaves Guildford early

How can trains be prevented from leaving early?

Slaim door trains leaving early

Early running trains

To name just a few threads on the subject.

 

[A-driver]

Most people know that the timetable tells you what time your train is supposed to depart - and that it may be later, usually as a result of circumstances outside the control of the train crew.



But as you 've said, early running should be avoided, and no passenger can reasonably be expected to be on the platform well before the advertised time because the people operating the train might take it our early.



When TOCs like SWT state that doors may be closed up to 30 seconds before the advertised departure time, it should not follow that the train will leave 15 seconds early. I entirely accept that if the train is due to leave at 11.00.00, then the doors need to close before that. In most cases, 15 seconds beforehand is sufficient to ensure a right time departure. I.e. close the doors at 10.59.45.



If it's the last train of the day, I'd certainly try to be there early, so that if I got delayed I'd still have a chance of catching it. But if I got to the platform 45 seconds before the advertised departure time I should not find that the train had already gone.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




Really?



Most passengers won't "know the timetable inside out" either, but they're likely to know if they're aiming to catch the last train. And a driver who claims to be so blinkered he isn't aware of it doesn't do himself (or herself) any favours.

Well how do you expect a driver to know they have the last train? Unless it's obvious like the 0135 kings x-Peterborough but on routes like the southern region with lots of destinations how would a driver know tht they are working te last train or just a late train? Most drivers have no interest in the railways and don't study timetables etc.

Don't see why it's a problem being blinkered to such things-unless you sit down comparing your diagram to a TT I can't see how you would know it's the lay train.

 

[sarahj]

Just to put the cat among the pigeons, what if the driver, or guard is going from a diagram with a differing time. I was working a train tonight and at 4 stations the CIS had my train leaving one min after it said on the diagram. At one other it was hard to know as the CIS was too far away to see. All the rest the CIS matched my diagram. I did report it, but there may be others.

(note, the train in question is normally a few (or more) mins late anyway, but tonight started short, and was thus on time, and thus noticed.)

 

[CyrusWuff]

Well how do you expect a driver to know they have the last train? Unless it's obvious like the 0135 kings x-Peterborough but on routes like the southern region with lots of destinations how would a driver know tht they are working te last train or just a late train? Most drivers have no interest in the railways and don't study timetables

In an ideal world, NR would follow London Underground practice and have last trains "lamped out" by a member of station staff. Unfortunately, this isn't an ideal world, and employing ~2500 people to do so isn't going to happen.

 

[A-driver]

In an ideal world, NR would follow London Underground practice and have last trains "lamped out" by a member of station staff. Unfortunately, this isn't an ideal world, and employing ~2500 people to do so isn't going to happen.

Agreed. Thing is that many NR stations are unmanned, especially at tht time of night.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Hasn't this discussion about early departures been had several times already...?

SWT - early running

Another train leaves Guildford early

How can trains be prevented from leaving early?

Slaim door trains leaving early

Early running trains

To name just a few threads on the subject.

Pretty much standard operating procedure on this forum it would appear. Start a thread about one subject, massive debate/argument over the contents, start it all over again under a different title.

 

[Bald Rick]

In an ideal world, NR would follow London Underground practice and have last trains "lamped out" by a member of station staff. Unfortunately, this isn't an ideal world, and employing ~2500 people to do so isn't going to happen.

Maybe it's just me, but I see plenty of underground stations without platform dispatch staff.

Besides, it would be somewhat more than 2,500 people. It's per platform, and will need at least 3 per platform to cover the opening times. And then some platforms will need more than one person. So would be nearer 15,000, less those already employed as dispatchers of course...

 

[Llanigraham]

In an ideal world, NR would follow London Underground practice and have last trains "lamped out" by a member of station staff. Unfortunately, this isn't an ideal world, and employing ~2500 people to do so isn't going to happen.

Why is it Network Rail's job?

 

[rdeez]

Pretty much standard operating procedure on this forum it would appear. Start a thread about one subject, massive debate/argument over the contents, start it all over again under a different title.

I might just start a game of 'argument bingo' by making a card with all the arguments raised in the previous threads and marking them off as they're repeated here

 

[D1009]

Most drivers have no interest in the railways and don't study timetables etc.

If that is true it's a very sad state of affairs. Thankfully I don't think it is.

 

[A-driver]

If that is true it's a very sad state of affairs. Thankfully I don't think it is.

Why is it a sad state of affairs? It's a job. Do you honestly think a driver at somewhere like Waterloo could tell you the time of the last train to every destination/ route from the station?!

 

[dcsprior]

To be completely honest, I think if a passenger misses a train by a minute or less then they are cutting it too fine.

So if a passenger leaves themselves 10 minutes contingency (or 20, or 60) that is then used up by some other unforeseen circumstance, resulting in them arriving just on time (lets define this as meaning a few seconds before "the doors close xxx before departure") are they cutting it too fine if the train then leaves early?

 

[D1009]

Why is it a sad state of affairs? It's a job. Do you honestly think a driver at somewhere like Waterloo could tell you the time of the last train to every destination/ route from the station?!

I believe most drivers will know which train is the last one on the routes they work, and to suggest that most drivers have no interest in the railway is to my mind a sad state of affairs.

 

[ComUtoR]

If that is true it's a very sad state of affairs.

Why ?

Thankfully I don't think it is.

Sorry to burst any bubbles but not many even give the timetable a second thought. We work to a roster and diagram/schedule. The absolute most I can tell you about the timetable and where trains etc go is basic and often inaccurate. Vic's leave at x, cross leaves at y and cannon leaves at z. (from my home station) That is mostly down to the repetitive nature of the job. With PA changes, stp diagrams, Bank holiday alterations etc there is way to much to consider. My concern is to ensure the units gets to its destination safely and as on time as possible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe most drivers will know which train is the last one on the routes they work,

That is a miniscule part of "the railway" and also a very insular attitude. Yes I/we may know the last train but that is because its on the night turn and is a pain in the ass to drive (passenger nightmare) Its also the ONLY last train I know at my depot. I have no idea about any other route/depot. Why do I need to know ? I know my first diagram book on and the last diagram book on.

 

[A-driver]

I believe most drivers will know which train is the last one on the routes they work, and to suggest that most drivers have no interest in the railway is to my mind a sad state of affairs.

Sorry to break it to you but you believe wrong then. The vast majority turn up, work to what their diagram says, go home and don't give it a second thought. Don't see why you would expect any different from someone doing their job?

As I say, when I worked the last train from Moorgate I had no idea it was the last one, don't see why you would expect me to either? Wasn't even a night shift or my latest bit!

 

[Rich McLean]

I don't know why they can't advertise every train as one minute earlier than the WTT time. Then, the doors shut at the advertised public time, train departs approx 30 seconds early by WTT time.

This happens with many XC Trains at New Street.

e.g. NE - SW, GBTT xx17, WTT xx20, but not always possible due to a multitude of reasons which could lead to a nationwide timetable re-write

 

[CyrusWuff]

Why is it Network Rail's job?

NR, in this case, being National Rail. Sorry for not being clear.

Maybe it's just me, but I see plenty of underground stations without platform dispatch staff.

I'm only talking about the last train of the night, which is always dispatched by one of the station staff on LU, and they often assist drivers with dispatch during the peaks as well.