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DOO and early running trains

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So how long do you expect us to dwell at each station, 2 extra mins per stop?? Just in case 1 passenger is running late.

I can see the next topic being posted and whinged about 'Slow guard/driver dwelling longer than needed at each stop!!!!!'
 
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Class377/5

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Or maybe TOC's could ensure they have accurate time keeping devices?

Drivers are generally issued with a radio control watch. I used to have one for my job on the front line. Who is to say that the passenger watch is the one at fault? I know of many times passengers have complained a train has left early but turns out the train is bang on time but it's the passenger who had the wrong time.

Or that most passengers confuse the departure time with the arrival time. The time on a timetable means when it leaves, not when you can board a train.

There are two sides to every story and simply being offensive and attacking when it could be either side at fault is silly.

And for the record 2mins is an issue on the congested railway. 2mins late in the Croydon area for example will result in a lot more delays.
 
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A-driver

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Drivers are generally issued with a radio control watch. I used to have one for my job on the front line. Who is to say that the passenger watch is the one at fault? I know of many times passengers have complained a train has left early but turns out the train is bang on time but it's the passenger who had the wrong time.



There are two sides to every story and simply being offensive and attacking when it could be either side at fault is silly.


Whilst I obviously agree with that, I would point out that those watches issued can be pretty unreliable. If you lined 5 drivers up in my mess room and checked all their watches there would be no surprise if you got 2 or 3 different times up to a minute out.
 

Antman

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Drivers are generally issued with a radio control watch. I used to have one for my job on the front line. Who is to say that the passenger watch is the one at fault? I know of many times passengers have complained a train has left early but turns out the train is bang on time but it's the passenger who had the wrong time.

There are two sides to every story and simply being offensive and attacking when it could be either side at fault is silly.

I'm just going by what the OP said.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So how long do you expect us to dwell at each station, 2 extra mins per stop?? Just in case 1 passenger is running late.

I can see the next topic being posted and whinged about 'Slow guard/driver dwelling longer than needed at each stop!!!!!'

Expecting the train not to leave before the advertised departure time surely isn't unreasonable?
 

A-driver

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I'm just going by what the OP said.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




Expecting the train not to leave before the advertised departure time surely isn't unreasonable?



It's not, no but suggesting complaining despite not being affected by it and then stating "drivers should not leave early...simples" suggests that you are purely trying to get someone disciplined for something which almost certainly wasn't their fault.

What would a driver get out of early running? It's a train so they won't get done any earlier...
 

Antman

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It's not, no but suggesting complaining despite not being affected by it and then stating "drivers should not leave early...simples" suggests that you are purely trying to get someone disciplined for something which almost certainly wasn't their fault.

What would a driver get out of early running? It's a train so they won't get done any earlier...

I don't know maybe the driver wasn't paying sufficient attention to what he was doing? Whatever the reason it is a matter for TfL to resolve which is why I suggested the OP contact them.
 

A-driver

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I don't know maybe the driver wasn't paying sufficient attention to what he was doing? Whatever the reason it is a matter for TfL to resolve which is why I suggested the OP contact them.


Can you elaborate on that over simple, driver bashing comment please or are you just trolling?!

How could not paying sufficient attention lead to the train running 1 min early constantly as described by the OP?

And even if a driver accidently misreads the time and leaves a station early exactly what do you expect the TOC to do about it? It's a very simple mistake and dead easy to make so is hardly likely to get anywhere near official disciplinary action...imagine the pointless conversation a manager would waste their time having with the driver-

"You left xyz station 1min early yesterday, why?"
"Did I? Didn't notice as if I had I would have waited until time"
"Ok, well don't do it again"
"Um, I won't deliberately, but then it wasn't deliberate then and I am generally very careful with such things"

Sometimes things happen...complaining when it hasn't even affected you is pointless and purely sticking your nose into things which don't concern you...
 

Antman

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Can you elaborate on that over simple, driver bashing comment please or are you just trolling?!

How could not paying sufficient attention lead to the train running 1 min early constantly as described by the OP?

And even if a driver accidently misreads the time and leaves a station early exactly what do you expect the TOC to do about it? It's a very simple mistake and dead easy to make so is hardly likely to get anywhere near official disciplinary action...imagine the pointless conversation a manager would waste their time having with the driver-

"You left xyz station 1min early yesterday, why?"
"Did I? Didn't notice as if I had I would have waited until time"
"Ok, well don't do it again"
"Um, I won't deliberately, but then it wasn't deliberate then and I am generally very careful with such things"

Sometimes things happen...complaining when it hasn't even affected you is pointless and purely sticking your nose into things which don't concern you...

This is getting silly, early running of any bus or train service (all the more so the last one of the day) is unacceptable and the only way to resolve the problem is to contact TfL or whoever is running the service in question.
 

A-driver

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This is getting silly, early running of any bus or train service (all the more so the last one of the day) is unacceptable and the only way to resolve the problem is to contact TfL or whoever is running the service in question.


But what do you honestly think they can do about it? Even if it was driver error it's hardly punishable to make a minor mistake...I don't see what you think complaining will actually achieve? It won't alter the fact that a train went early.
 

AndyNLondon

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This is getting silly, early running of any bus or train service (all the more so the last one of the day) is unacceptable and the only way to resolve the problem is to contact TfL or whoever is running the service in question.
Given this from earlier in the thread...
As an aside, I can assure you that Control would know if it's running early (it will show up on their screens) and a "please explain" will be sent to the driver concerned. No need to contact anyone about it. Control and signallers know a lot more of what's going on than the TOCS twitter teams too!
What purpose do you see in writing to TfL about something that their control room will already have known about and that didn't cause you a problem?
 

DY444

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This is getting silly, early running of any bus or train service (all the more so the last one of the day) is unacceptable and the only way to resolve the problem is to contact TfL or whoever is running the service in question.

Unacceptable or not there is one part of LO where early running is authorised. Specifically the ELL northbound from Surrey Quays. The instruction to drivers on that section is to depart as soon as station duties are complete and not wait time. It did at one time apply southbound on that section too but that was subsequently changed.

Perhaps a similar instruction has been issued for other parts of the LO.

I'll leave everyone else to argue about it but there is a degree of common sense imo in doing this on the northbound ELL although not anywhere else.
 

Antman

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But what do you honestly think they can do about it? Even if it was driver error it's hardly punishable to make a minor mistake...I don't see what you think complaining will actually achieve? It won't alter the fact that a train went early.

A quiet word in the drivers ear and hopefully it won't happen again?

When I was on the buses it was drummed into me from the outset the importance of adhering to the timetable, if you're late due to circumstances beyond your control that was just one of those things but don't ever leave early unless instructed to do so by the controller.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Unacceptable or not there is one part of LO where early running is authorised. Specifically the ELL northbound from Surrey Quays. The instruction to drivers on that section is to depart as soon as station duties are complete and not wait time. It did at one time apply southbound on that section too but that was subsequently changed.

Perhaps a similar instruction has been issued for other parts of the LO.

I'll leave everyone else to argue about it but there is a degree of common sense imo in doing this on the northbound ELL although not anywhere else.

Well then it's down to whoever gave that instruction.
 

Class377/5

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I'm just going by what the OP said.

Actually your not. No where did the OP actually say where he got that time from nor if he had checked the platforms meaning you've been making assumptions about the driver and refused to even deal with the possibility is the OP whose at fault.
 

Antman

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Actually your not. No where did the OP actually say where he got that time from nor if he had checked the platforms meaning you've been making assumptions about the driver and refused to even deal with the possibility is the OP whose at fault.

The OP clearly said that the last eastbound GOBLIN left early from every station whilst he was onboard.
 

A-driver

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A quiet word in the drivers ear and hopefully it won't happen again?



When I was on the buses it was drummed into me from the outset the importance of adhering to the timetable, if you're late due to circumstances beyond your control that was just one of those things but don't ever leave early unless instructed to do so by the controller.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




Well then it's down to whoever gave that instruction.


Read my post. As I say, a quiet word with the driver downs nothing to help. The driver won't have done it deliberately so pointing out a non deliberate mistake serves no purpose. He won't do it again deliberately but there again didn't do it then deliberately. As I said, it's completely pointless.
 

Oswyntail

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I would have thought that a gentle reminder to all train crew that early departures annoy passengers, without referring to any specific incident, would be sufficient.
 

A-driver

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I would have thought that a gentle reminder to all train crew that early departures annoy passengers, without referring to any specific incident, would be sufficient.


Not really considering no one does it on purpose and those that do leave early are not aware of it or else they wouldn't do it!
 

LAX54

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Oh come on expecting a driver not to run ahead of a timetable is not too much to ask, a few minutes late is no great hardship.

Its no great hardship, but it will flag a delay, then there will be the reports to be filled in, and the TOC will have to pay the 'late running' fine to NR....and so it goes on, a few mins late at point A may affect regulating at point C and make another train late, more minutes to add to the delay and costs etc etc
(just because it seems to be the 'last' train, of course it's not ! )

and are we sure the OP's watch was correct to the split second ??
 
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Antman

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Not really considering no one does it on purpose and those that do leave early are not aware of it or else they wouldn't do it!

Well they will pay a bit more attention next time, anyway further debate on this issue is pointless
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Read my post. As I say, a quiet word with the driver downs nothing to help. The driver won't have done it deliberately so pointing out a non deliberate mistake serves no purpose. He won't do it again deliberately but there again didn't do it then deliberately. As I said, it's completely pointless.

Aren't all mistakes by definition non deliberate?:D:D
 

A-driver

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Well they will pay a bit more attention next time, anyway further debate on this issue is pointless


Pay more attention? You are just obviously trolling. Nothing to do with paying attention. Perhaps try fully understanding what you are talking about before making such inflammatory comments. Are you joes you saying you have never in your life made a minor mistake?

It's comments like yours which create such a divide between staff and passengers on this forum. Leaving early has nothing to do with paying attention. And a DOO driver has far more important things to be concentrating on which could cost people their lives so misreading the time once in a while when regularly stopping at 100+ stops a day is hardly a big deal!
 

67018

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Real time trains showing it ran quarter to half a minute early through out the entire journey.
Doors are advertised as closed 40 seconds before departure, so a prompt closure and get under way quickly would allow a 30 second early running.

Aren't we sort of missing the point here?

The quote above is from post 7. This seems to suggest that the train was not running significantly early, and anyone arriving before the advertised 40 seconds before departure would have caught it.

An additional point - we are talking about the GOBLIN, not some rural branch line. Missing the train doesn't mean sleeping in a cowshed or walking 20 miles home - there will be numerous alternatives including a 24 hour bus service. Inconvenience yet, but hardly a disaster.
 

Class377/5

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The OP clearly said that the last eastbound GOBLIN left early from every station whilst he was onboard.

But he didn't tell us how he was measuring the time. If he was just using his watch then the train could quite likely be running to time and it was him in error. This whole topic replies had been how the driver and train crew are always in error yet the original post leaves open the possibly it was running to time. They is assuming because of your point of view wanting to attack people in the job, which is what you have done, when your dismissing the simple fact your whole platform of attack over this train is shakey.
 

hounddog

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This whole topic replies had been how the driver and train crew are always in error .

Apart from those (from drivers, funnily enough) saying that the drivers are never at fault and even if they are it doesn't matter.
 

Class377/5

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Apart from those (from drivers, funnily enough) saying that the drivers are never at fault and even if they are it doesn't matter.

No-one has said that. In fact the driver that is replying had not stated the driver is at fault but reasons why it could have happened. But that doesn't change the fact that Antman is trying to blame the driver when there's no actual evidence in the original post of this. In fact even the post where someone had looked at realtimestrains doesn't actually prove the driver went early as even a second early would be recorded as a minute in the system.
 

3141

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I’m amazed by this thread.

OP says the last train of the day ran early. If so, it might be deliberate or it might be a mistake – the driver’s watch being wrong as suggested here several times.

Trains ought to run on time, especially the last one, and while late running is often unavoidable early running is avoidable and shouldn’t happen.

Going on about how passengers should be on the platform in plenty of time is irrelevant and doesn’t change the fact that a train ought not to leave earlier than the timetable says.

Post no. 7 indicates that the train ran only half a minute early, not as much as the OP recorded, so maybe his watch was wrong.

OK so far.

But then some posters get worked up about the idea that early running might get reported (to TfL in this case), accusations of “grassing” and “trolling”, that only a person who was directly affected by something should think of reporting it, the risk of a driver being disciplined, and so on.

In fact, if it was reported, TfL could look up TRUST just as poster no. 7 did, find the train ran half a minute early, tell the person who wrote in that actually it wasn’t as early as he’d claimed, and issue reminders to all drivers to try not to leave before time. There’s nothing immoral, interfering or job-threatening about that last bit, is there?

I’m a passenger. I think most railway staff do a good job, most of the time. In fact, most people do a good job most of the time. I wrote about a very helpful guard in post no. 3 on the thread "Bad Day at SWT NR Alliance Office 10-2-15" last week.

But when there’s a large number of very defensive posts, criticising anyone who is critical of something that occurs on the railway (in this case a single incident late one evening), arguing that passengers should mind their own business, implying that if you miss your train when it left early it’s your own fault – then it really doesn’t help the reputation of the railway at all.
 

313103

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Real time trains showing it ran quarter to half a minute early through out the entire journey.
Doors are advertised as closed 40 seconds before departure, so a prompt closure and get under way quickly would allow a 30 second early running.

30 seconds on LOROL.
 

richw

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30 seconds on LOROL.

How quickly after shutting the doors can a train pull away? Immediately?
If so shut the doors as advertised, and pull away. will result in a 30 second early running as shown on RealTime Trains.
 

A-driver

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How quickly after shutting the doors can a train pull away? Immediately?

If so shut the doors as advertised, and pull away. will result in a 30 second early running as shown on RealTime Trains.


Immediately really. Why would the train wait? Close doors up to 30sex before to allow 30secs for doors to close and safety checks completed. Then go once you have interlock and all is clear. No point waiting in the platform for 15secs or whatever-you wouldn't re-open the doors of anyone walked onto the platform as that would make you late.
 

richw

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Immediately really. Why would the train wait? Close doors up to 30sex before to allow 30secs for doors to close and safety checks completed. Then go once you have interlock and all is clear. No point waiting in the platform for 15secs or whatever-you wouldn't re-open the doors of anyone walked onto the platform as that would make you late.

I didn't know if there were procedures to follow that take x seconds after doors are closed. In that case there is no reason not to run up to 30 secs early if a quick getaway is possible,
 
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