Doncaster - Sheffield line prospects?

[ECML180]

So, with the plans for the Sheffield - Rotherham tram train confirmed and HS2 destined for Meadowhall, what do we think lies in the future for the railway between Doncaster and Sheffield? I remember reading plans to bring it up to 4 tracks around Swinton, which makes sense given it is he busier end.

So the questions I'd like to hear your opinion on:
Is capacity becoming a problem?
How does the tram train affect services?
The likelyhood of trams extending further to Doncaster

Cheers
ECML180

 

[johnnychips]

Can't see any point in extending tram-train to Donny. If it replaced the current stoppers it would just mean a slower journey for people in Swinton, Mexborough or Conisbrough.

 

[ECML180]

Can't see any point in extending tram-train to Donny. If it replaced the current stoppers it would just mean a slower journey for people in Swinton, Mexborough or Conisbrough.

How do you mean would that mean a slower journey, by going via tram lines into city centre compared to the staion? It depends where you want to be, if you're connecting at the station it means a change at Meadowhall but it you're heading to the city centre it's probably quicker than walking up.

 

[unlevel42]

The tram train could be extended to Swinton from Parkgate and there are advantages of using Swinton as a local interchange.
The tram train will not go to Meadowhall so Swinton, Mexborough or Conisbrough pax who wish to go to Sheffield centre etc should change to Supertam at Sheffield station.

Extending Tram trains to Doncaster is not probable because it would reduce the capacity caused by a more vulnerable and slower vehicle competing with freight, cross country, trans pennine and local trains.

Between Meadowhall and Moorthorpe/Doncaster there is potential for dramatic change.
Lines speed could be greatly increased by changing the layout at Masborough, Mexborough, Hexthorpe and Doncaster station to reduce the curves. A flyover at Aldwarke would separate Leeds/York from Doncaster traffic.

 

[ECML180]

Extending Tram trains to Doncaster is not probable because it would reduce the capacity caused by a more vulnerable and slower vehicle competing with freight, cross country, trans pennine and local trains.

Between Meadowhall and Moorthorpe/Doncaster there is potential for dramatic change.
Lines speed could be greatly increased by changing the layout at Masborough, Mexborough, Hexthorpe and Doncaster station to reduce the curves. A flyover at Aldwarke would separate Leeds/York from Doncaster traffic.

Agreed-I think that extending the tram train would come hand in hand with route improvements, to both increase line speed and go some way to separating slow and fast traffic.

Equally I think some of the slow traffic would be tram train(although local network/metro for example may be a better name) for example the Sheffield - Adwick services. 3 stopping trains per hour from Sheffield to Adwick, Thorne and Robin Hood Airport seems to me like a good way to progress the local network.

 

[9K43]

Why not bring back the Midland Main Line via Wath Road Junction to connect up to the single line which services the Glass Factory at Monk Bretton and relay the whole track bed as far as Oakenshaw Junction through to Clader Bridge Junction through to Turners Lane junction to Leeds.
I spent Half my railway life pulling up all the lines on the Midland just for a joke.

 

[alwaystouchout]

Weren't there also plans to widen the Sheffield-Dore line to four tracks, two for NR services and two for a Supertram extension?

 

[ECML180]

Connecting with high speed at Meadowhall, due to arrive in just 20 years is the Dore extension! I'd say the route between Sheffield Centre and Tinsley could become quite busy with an additional 6 trams per hour from Dore. However it seems that the plan is to run it on the railway and not roads, so whether this is technically a supertram extension or an additional rail line is not clear!

 

[edwin_m]

Why not bring back the Midland Main Line via Wath Road Junction to connect up to the single line which services the Glass Factory at Monk Bretton and relay the whole track bed as far as Oakenshaw Junction through to Clader Bridge Junction through to Turners Lane junction to Leeds.
I spent Half my railway life pulling up all the lines on the Midland just for a joke.

Blocked by an industrial estate just north of the former junction at Swinton.

 

[Haydn1971]

Being involved professionally in transport developments in both South & West Yorkshire, I am aware of several things moving forward - my comments here however are my own views and don't necessarily match up with documents and discussions that I've had !

There needs to be a step change in linkage to the HS2 station at Meadowhall, primarily from western suburbs of Sheffield but also from Barnsley & Doncaster, the MML is due to be electrified in the next control period to Sheffield, it doesn't take a genius to realise that Sheffield to the ECML will come soon after, so I'm seeing an opportunity to run a Chesterfield-Dore-Sheffield-Meadowhall-Rotherham-Swinton-Doncaster EMU service. Currently services through Rotherham and Barnsley are very poor, so again, it doesn't take a genius to imagine a more frequent service between Meadowhall and Barnsley/Rotherham/Swinton etc.

What about CrossCountry services ? I'd expect alternate services in the hour stopping alternately at Sheffield and Meadowhall, perhaps both ?, perhaps even moving from a 30 minute to a 20 minute even possibly a 15 minute frequency using cascaded 221/222 units from the electrified Midland Mainline.

What about ECML services ? I'd imagine that Meadowhall could become a key hub for services to the north, with IEP services complimenting HS2 classic comparable services going onwards to York and Newcastle. Remember that ECML south of York will become much less of a intercity service as passengers will predominantly shift to HS2.

TransPennine ? Currently an hourly frequency, we could see a 30 even 20 minute frequency splitting to new destinations such as Lincoln via Doncaster Robin Hood Airport - although a big increase in passengers is required, which could come if extra runways at Heathrow and Gatwick don't happen.

East Midland Trains - services to Sheffield will reduce significant, I'd see Meadowhall as the new terminus for London trains and a turnaround station for the Liverpool-Norwich service too

A lot is been pinned on tram-train - I can see them working on journeys up to 15 miles, but feel heavy rail is still the solution for longer distance.

 

[tbtc]

For those who don't know the area, the Sheffield - Doncaster line follows the River Don pretty closely all the way (unlike the more direct X78 bus which goes over the hill via Thrybergh, or the M18 which goes some way to the south/ east). This means quite a "kink" in the route via Swinton - so the journey time has never been very fast (journeys taking 25/35/40 minutes for an 18 mile distance as then crow flies).

The biggest problem with the Sheffield - Doncaster line is the Rotherham loop - flat crossing and the single line Holmes Chord at the southern end of the loop and the flat crossing at the northern end of the loop.

This limits the number of services that can serve Rotherham (typically three an hour) and makes timings very tight - which means a number of services are overtaken because of this time penalty - which limits the number of journey opportunities available for Sheffield to Doncaster passengers (and, similarly, Sheffield to Wakefield Westgate, since the stopper is overtaken by the XC service whilst it is in the Rotherham Loop). Sort this out and you remove quite a headache.

You could remove the bottleneck by omitting the loop, with all stopping trains serving a replacement station by Parkgate instead (the busy retail park, which is expected to be the terminus for TramTrain)...

...but this would mean no link from Rotherham to Meadowhall. Plus, the TramTrains aren't expected to run to Sheffield Midlands station (they are promoted for links into Sheffield city centre).

Dore would be a waste of time for TramTrain - much better to extend the various services which terminate from the north (i.e. from the Barnsley, Dearne Valley, Doncaster directions) through to Dore, which frees up a lot of platform space at Sheffield Midland (a bit like the idea of extending terminating Leeds services through to Micklefield or extending terminating Birmingham services through to Tamworth) and therefore would give the southern suburbs (Dore, and maybe a station at Millhouses?) a direct link to HS2 at Meadowhall.

But then you'd want a six platform megastation at Dore, which is getting waaaay off topic.

 

[WestRiding]

How do you mean would that mean a slower journey, by going via tram lines into city centre compared to the staion? It depends where you want to be, if you're connecting at the station it means a change at Meadowhall but it you're heading to the city centre it's probably quicker than walking up.

You would not be changing at Meadowhall though, you would be getting off at meadowhall south/tinsley, and walking to meadowhall station. THE TRAM TRAIN WILL NOT SERVE MEADOWHALL (INTERCHANGE!)

 

[Haydn1971]

A few things...

The Holmes Chord is a limiting factor for Rotherham Central, however all three Rotherham to Meadowhall trains leave in a 23 minute window, going the other way is a tad more spread evenly across the hour. Fix the points each end, dual the track and remove the level crossing, you could add a CrossCountry or TransPennine service once per hour.

Tram-train is currently proposed to run via Meadowhall South, that doesn't preclude future development of a direct route to Meadowhall Interchange.

More platforms at Dore ? I'd say you could easily fit a second platform in for the Hope Valley line, but given a reduced express service on the MML, the option of platforms on the mainline starts to open up, coupled up with a second car park south of Twentywell Lane and CrossCountry links south start sounding a great idea

 

[ECML180]

You would not be changing at Meadowhall though, you would be getting off at meadowhall south/tinsley, and walking to meadowhall station. THE TRAM TRAIN WILL NOT SERVE MEADOWHALL (INTERCHANGE!)

Thank you for the capitals, I find it hard to spot normal text. :roll:
I'm presuming that the tram train will serve Meadowhall as the things I've read indicate variously Sheffield - Rotherham and some mention Meadowhall.

I've yet to see a map for either tram train or Dore extensions, if anyone could show me I'd be very grateful.

 

[tbtc]

Thank you for the capitals, I find it hard to spot normal text. :roll:
I'm presuming that the tram train will serve Meadowhall as the things I've read indicate variously Sheffield - Rotherham and some mention Meadowhall.

I've yet to see a map for either tram train or Dore extensions, if anyone could show me I'd be very grateful.

The TramTrain will serve Meadowhall shopping centre at the Meadowhall South stop (of the current Supertram route):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/7727491078/

However, instead of running to Meadowhall Interchange (where the trains currently serve), the TramTrain will continue along the single track line shown in the above picture towards Rotherham.

 

[Haydn1971]

I've yet to see a map for either tram train or Dore extensions, if anyone could show me I'd be very grateful.

Dore extensions are speculative - I'm not aware of an online plan for tram-train but I do know that it splits from the tram line just south of Meadowhall onto the freight line corridor to Rotherham - a second set of platforms are proposed at Meadowhall South, the platforms get extended south at Rotherham Central, then another single platform at Parkgate in (I seem to recall) a siding at a location to be confirmed.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Attached PDF (from Rotherham council/Sheffield council) shows a map of the link, running via "the back of Meadowhall", not the interchange.

 

[Haydn1971]

There has been talk of a further tram stop at Magna too - I'm not aware of any secured funding for this though.

tram stop with Park & Ride at Magna

 

[ECML180]

Thank you all, I can see the logic in not going to M/Hall Interchange but it does surprise me that it comes that close and still misses it! I presume the justification for calling it 'TramTrain' is that it used NR lines, to me all it seems to be is a long tram line as the distance between the stops is still quite small! Does anyone else think it's a bad idea to not include stops between Tinsley and Rotherham-I'd imaging Magna would be suitable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Damn! Must type faster!

 

[Haydn1971]

Then, as if by magic ! The Magna stop appeared

 

[eastwestdivide]

There has been talk of a further tram stop at Magna too - I'm not aware of any secured funding for this though.

tram stop with Park & Ride at Magna

To quote that article,

Andrew Denniff, executive director of Barnsley & Rotherham Chamber, said: [...] and who knows if it proves a success, we might even get a station at Magna, with all the potential around a park n ride facility that might be developed there

So more of a wish from a chamber of commerce than anything concrete. To my mind, there's not much housing in the immediate vicinity of Magna, and park and ride to where exactly? Central Sheffield maybe, but there's already P+R at Nunnery directly off Sheffield Parkway. I'm not sure Rotherham or Parkgate as a destination would justify a park and ride.

 

[Haydn1971]

Indeed - talk doesn't make a good business case. Although improving accessibility to Magna by "tram" will be a good thing in the eyes of the chamber of comerce.

Park and Ride at Magna for services into Sheffield would be more attractive to people coming from the East, as the Nunnery P&R involves a painful slog down the Sheffield Parkway in the morning peak to the inner ring road in order to u-turn to access the parking.

 

[tbtc]

A Magna P&R would be in the wrong place - wrong side of the M1 for most commuting into Sheffield - anyone from the Rotherham area is more likely to drive to Sheffield via the Parkway.

Its a long distance between stops, for the TramTrain proposal, but there's really not a lot around there (apart from a museum with falling visitor numbers).

 

[Haydn1971]

A Magna P&R would be in the wrong place - wrong side of the M1 for most commuting into Sheffield - anyone from the Rotherham area is more likely to drive to Sheffield via the Parkway.

People living southeast of the town centre would head for the Parkway, people living northwest and north would look towards the Lower Don Valley, so something near J34 / Magna could be more attractive to them.

Its a long distance between stops, for the TramTrain proposal, but there's really not a lot around there (apart from a museum with falling visitor numbers).

At the moment there isn't much at all, but there is a huge plot of land to the west of Magna that's going to become more attractive with a tram link, the new link road to Meadowhall (under the viaduct) and proximity to the HS2 station. I'm not convinced at the moment, but given the private sector is starting to ease out of recession, it only takes one developer to make a case for dropping business units, a supermarket or other such attraction onto the site and bingo, you have a planning condition of a tram stop.

 

[Bevan Price]

A few things...

The Holmes Chord is a limiting factor for Rotherham Central, however all three Rotherham to Meadowhall trains leave in a 23 minute window, going the other way is a tad more spread evenly across the hour. Fix the points each end, dual the track and remove the level crossing, you could add a CrossCountry or TransPennine service once per hour.

)

In my opinion, closing Rotherham Masborough was a mistake - it should have been retained for long-distance services to the north. At present, Rotherham passengers for the north have to rely on all shacks services to Doncaster or Leeds, and change there. An hourly (or even 2 hourly) stop by Cross Country services would give a much improved / quicker service to the North East.

 

[johnnychips]

I thought the idea of diverting some cross-country services via Doncaster (and I can't remember how long ago this was) was to relieve pressure through Leeds and use the fast ECML to make up time, not to add a stop in Doncaster per se. Stopping at Rotherham would limit this benefit - indeed they do not stop currently at Meadowhall.

 

[calc7]

I thought the idea of diverting some cross-country services via Doncaster (and I can't remember how long ago this was) was to relieve pressure through Leeds and use the fast ECML to make up time, not to add a stop in Doncaster per se. Stopping at Rotherham would limit this benefit - indeed they do not stop currently at Meadowhall.

It could ideally be used to supplement the York-Docaster East Coast service (3tp2h) but runs less than 10 minutes behind East Coast in both directions which is a bit of a shame.

 

[johnnychips]

It could ideally be used to supplement the York-Docaster East Coast service (3tp2h) but runs less than 10 minutes behind East Coast in both directions which is a bit of a shame.

Agree. But as I said that wasn't its primary purpose; quite a few people do get on at Donny for the south though, but I suppose if all XC trains were rerouted through Leeds again, they (and connecting passengers from Hull/Cleethorpes lines) could easily change at Sheffield. There are no proposals to reroute them as far as I know, however.

 

[mwmbwls]

Thank you for the capitals, I find it hard to spot normal text. :roll:
I'm presuming that the tram train will serve Meadowhall as the things I've read indicate variously Sheffield - Rotherham and some mention Meadowhall.

I've yet to see a map for either tram train or Dore extensions, if anyone could show me I'd be very grateful.

This was the original SYPTE plan for the Dore extension - a segregated tramway sharing part of the existing MML alignment south of Midland Station which then diverged near Archer Roadand thence ran along Abbeydale Road South via Beauchief to terminate at Dore station.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwmbwls/9236299385/in/set-72157633407999230

 

[IanXC]

It could ideally be used to supplement the York-Docaster East Coast service (3tp2h) but runs less than 10 minutes behind East Coast in both directions which is a bit of a shame.

My view is that the game changer on this issue is whether/when the East Coast franchise extend the current Newark terminators to York. My understanding is that XC have always been keen to have 2tph via Leeds so this would enable that.

I would, however propose a further XC service with an origin south of Birmingham, to run via Derby and Sheffield, then calling at Rotherham Central/Meadowhall (alternate hours), Doncaster, Goole, Brough and Hull.

This would maintain the South XC connections at Doncaster, provide Hull with a link to Birmingham, and mitigate the likely withdrawal of through services to/from the Yorkshire Coast when electrification reaaches the line via Goole.