LBA literally has a direct bus link to Harrogate and many people in York travel to LBA. Even in this thread, people have listed instances of traveling from outside WY to get to LBA. Leeds East is in the middle of nowhere, we've had this discussion before, it has no suitable catchment area and terrible transport links. DSA is best suited to housing.
It has a direct bus link to the towns extremely near it, but nothing really further afield.
Leeds East has the potential for good transport links with the right level of investment - I was thinking of it as a LBA and DSA replacer, but it seems some forum members are intent on forcing people to the windswept hut near Yeadon or Ringway forever.
Building new, affordable housing is a fantastic use of investment money, including on the land that DSA occupies.
It's a job for private investment, not capital investment by a local council. Social housing estates aren't a terrible investment choice, but, again, legally this is the wrong type of funding stream - that's more of a Public Works Board loan job, not Gainshare funding.
Hence why I said that each Combined Authority would chip in and of course Westminster would contribute
It's going to be £5 billion plus, any Combined Authority contribution is going to be a drop in the water and better used locally.
If central government are prepared to bankroll it, great, but local funding won't make up anywhere near enough to even get the idea off the ground.
Yes LBA is not the easiest to get to, but it does have links to outside of West Yorkshire, namely a bus to Harrogate.
Harrogate is functionally part of the West Yorkshire conurbation for travel - it has strong rail and bus links with Leeds, and it's in the rail travelcard Zones for WYCA/Metro.
But for anyone coming by public transport, they'd have to get a train to Church Fenton and then a bus to the airport. Pretty much the same for anyone getting the train to Leeds or Bradford and then getting one of the Flyer buses to the airport.
Or a train to an airport station between Church Fenton and Ulleskelf (with a similar airport station on the ECML) and a people mover connecting both stations with the ECML. A unified Yorkshire airport would have a big catchment, so it's not a completely far flung idea.
Nobody uses trains to get to small regional airports, Teesside has a station and I’m sure when it was open it was one of the least used in the U.K. perhaps @AlastairFraser needs to remember this point, because it’s important to understand that despite all the bluster about DSA getting a railway station, it’s a complete non starter.
Prestwick, Inverness and Southampton Airports are all regional airports that have well-used stations.
I don't think that DSA would particularly need one, it had and can still obtain great bus links to a major intercity station (Doncaster), where as bus links to Humberside from any station are sporadic, to say the least.
Ultimately though to try rule out an airport based on a lack of rail links is stupid. The big problem for DSA, as I’ve said countless times, is its proximity to bigger airports. This hasn’t changed and won’t change and the airport is a proven commercial failure. Humberside makes a profit. I’m therefore offering a pragmatic solution. I’m not suggesting Humberside could be a major regional airport, of course it couldn’t and there isn’t a need for one around these parts hence the failure of DSA. I’m arguing that Humberside has a history of delivering a smaller number of higher yielding passengers who want to pay for the convenience of using their local airport and therefore without DSA or its threat of competition it can once again serve that purpose. People in Sheffield will continue using Manchester, East Midlands or Birmingham so DSA is more convenient for less people.
Humberside should be able to stand on its own without worrying about DSA, and I believe both airports can coexist peacefully (if DSA does eventually get off the ground properly).
Also @AlastairFraser please do not use patronising language referring to ‘loving Humberside’. Some of us have been around long enough to have seen this happening a long time ago, MAG couldn’t believe people drank the Kool Aid in 2003, their predictions have held. Sadly people see a long runway and think this is a check on success. It’s not.
I don't think the language I used was patronising, apologies if you felt that way. I just don't think that Humberside is the only answer to all of South Yorks' transport woes, sadly.
You're playing fantasy airport again and ignoring real world considerations. The real world as it pertains to airports and airlines wanting to use them doesn't work like this. Being in the middle of nowhere is a huge problem for Leeds East both where it sits, as it has a tiny catchment population, and the physical geography of that area (it's basically a huge flood plain, which is why road links to it are very sparse) isn't great. Nobody is going to be building A roads to Church Fenton, the costs of it would massively outweigh any possible benefit and especially not 10 mile link dual carriageways going to nowhere except the airport, there's nowhere else it would pass on the route.
Tiny catchment? By whose standards?
I don't anticipate the airport working without comprehensive transport links including new roads and stations, but it's not such an inherently bad site for a major regional airport as some forum members would have you believe. It functions perfectly well as an airfield now and it has potential for a lot more.
And to repeat, yet again. LBA is on one of the main arterial routes into Bradford and 2 minutes from one of the main arterial routes into Leeds. They're not 'bad quality' roads. It's not hard to get to, except if you're in South Yorks (but it's still much simpler than getting to Church Fenton from there. I suspect none would bother, they'd just go to MAN or EMA instead).
Outside rush hours the roads leading to LBA aren't busy roads. It's easy to access from both East and North Yorkshire. I should know, I've lived in both, close to Church Fenton as well, and use the airport fairly regularly. Getting to/from York/ Harrogate is very simple and involves very little traffic.
You can keep calling them main arterial roads, the fact is they are still **** and miles from any decent standard dual carriageway (apart from 600 metres under the runway).
From N Wales LPL is M56/M53 straight through the tunnel and turn right. It's significantly shorter and easier in traffic terms than getting to MAN.
Actually not any more, it's currently 37 mins from even Queensferry, right next to the border with the Wirral, to both Liverpool and Manchester airports by road. The bulk of the Wirral population probably just about is quicker to John Lennon airport, but not any part of North Wales, mostly because the M56 isn't so congested these days and traffic south of Liverpool city centre makes that route through either tunnel longer than the Runcorn bridges (but the increased mileage makes it roughly equivalent to the Manchester road journey).
Lots of people from south Cumbria and Lancs use LBA too, they don't all use Manchester. People from north and northwest Cumbria use Newcastle mostly.
Fair comment about Newcastle.
I don't think many people use LBA from most of Lancs, (Burnley/Pendle excluded), it's way faster to get to either Manchester or Liverpool, which typically have a much better range of departures and destinations than LBA.
Some of Westmorland may use LBA, but it's a trek from the rest of Cumbria and the population of the Westmorland part isn't very high (less than 150k). The A590 from Furness takes long enough to reach the M6 and that region's direct access to Manchester Airport by train also helps Manchester take most passengers.
nd just re Humberside, it's simple to get to from south Yorks. From Doncaster it's entirely motorway apart from about 4 miles on very quiet rural A roads at the end. As easy to get to and quicker as EMA is. Not that I think Humberside wants to expand that much at the moment.
The roads are much better quality, I'll give you that, but the public transport offer is lacking and will need to get better if they want to attract a low cost operator to open a sizeable base (even if it's just Ryanair style coach operations, purchased as a ticket add-on).
The roads to LBA are slow because they go through urban areas with 30mph and 40mph speed limits. From just outside Halifax, where my family live, to LBA it is all 30mph and 40mph roads. In terms of travel time, Manchester and even Liverpool are not actually that much further, so it comes down to price/convenience.
Precisely.
I'm don't dispute your experience but I am surprised people from southern Cumbria and north Lancashire would choose to use LBA in meaningful numbers. I certainly wouldn't make that choice because the A59 and the A65 are absolutely awful roads. The north of the county would generally head for Newcastle or even Glasgow.
Tbh I think the A59 through Lancs and past Skipton isn't too unreliable, it's getting from the A59 to LBA which gets a bit more complicated. Agreed about the A65. I've met people from Settle going to Manchester Airport for a reason, and it's mostly a smooth journey by car (M60, M66/A56, M65, A682 and then a small section of A65 to approach Settle itself).
As for North Wales, again its much of a muchness between Liverpool and Manchester, the catchment areas do pretty much completely overlap. It'll come down to price and convenience. It's a shorter distance by road to Liverpool but the tunnels and the Runcorn bridge are tolled and that adds faff, whereas the M56 leads directly to Manchester Airport's front door. Obviously by train it's easier to get to Manchester than Liverpool, although the bus link from Liverpool South Parkway is pretty reliable.
Exactly, although I do hope Liverpool's superior customer experience incentivises people from North Wales to use it.