Doncaster Sheffield Airport to reopen?

[Skymonster]

It will take time and money to reestablish the controlled airspace. If nothing else, while recognising that the South Yorkshire planning authority may have a vested interest in "protecting" the area for aviation, with the airspace removed but the final approach from the south passing over Nottinghamshire (which may not have a compelling desire for reopening), one wonders how stringent consideration of [airspace] safeguarding will continue be.

 

[mpthomson]

It will take time and money to reestablish the controlled airspace. If nothing else, while recognising that the South Yorkshire planning authority may have a vested interest in "protecting" the area for aviation, with the airspace removed but the final approach from the south passing over Nottinghamshire (which may not have a compelling desire for reopening), one wonders how stringent consideration of [airspace] safeguarding will continue be.

The CAA has already said that what it gets back isn't likely to be the same (or as much) as what it previously had, which just adds more uncertainty for airline operators.

 

[pug1]

It will take time and money to reestablish the controlled airspace. If nothing else, while recognising that the South Yorkshire planning authority may have a vested interest in "protecting" the area for aviation, with the airspace removed but the final approach from the south passing over Nottinghamshire (which may not have a compelling desire for reopening), one wonders how stringent consideration of [airspace] safeguarding will continue be.

There is an airspace modernisation process being completed but at what pace I don’t know, knowing the CAA not very fast. It always astounded me that DSA got such huge swathes of airspace allocated for so few commercial movements, I suppose it’s a testament to the team Peel had in place. There had been a fresh ACP with statement of need submitted in August 2024 by Cyrrus advising on behalf of Doncaster Council but I don’t believe there has been any update on this since.

Humberside is one of only a couple of airports in the U.K. that operate in Class G. They were encouraged to apply from Class D back in the late 2000’s when there was a push for smaller airports gaining it. Sadly MAG made a business decision not to pursue it in light of the financial crash and the fact that DSA had recently been granted its own, there were concerns of a funnelling effect of class G traffic down the isle of Axholm. One could argue that Humberside, with frequent scheduled services but also helicopter movements, should have that layer of protection afforded to it. Indeed there is nothing stopping an aircraft from not maintaining contact with the radar controllers at Humberside and they can even fly through the approach if they so wish. Obviously good airmanship would dictate that this is a stupid thing to do but I understand it has happened. Sadly Humberside has become a haven for certain people topping up their pensions with autonomy afforded to them by an owner whose regional manager is based in the USA! How different things could have been had Peel seen sense back in 2003.

 

[BoroAndy]

Just flatten it and build 4,000 new homes on it already.

4,000 homes, enough to attract a new airport.

 

[Bantamzen]

4,000 homes, enough to attract a new airport.

Not even close. Assuming that all homes average 4 people, that's only 16,000 more seats filled if they all went on a holiday every year, which equates to around 86 737-800 flights or about an extra flight on average every 4 days.

DSA topped out at a maximum of around 1.9 million passengers in their best year, but where nowhere near close to making a profit. Estimates at the time to break even where closer to 3 million, so 16K more seats won't even create a ripple on the coffee of an aviation exec.

 

[pug1]

Not even close. Assuming that all homes average 4 people, that's only 16,000 more seats filled if they all went on a holiday every year, which equates to around 86 737-800 flights or about an extra flight on average every 4 days.

DSA topped out at a maximum of around 1.9 million passengers in their best year, but where nowhere near close to making a profit. Estimates at the time to break even where closer to 3 million, so 16K more seats won't even create a ripple on the coffee of an aviation exec.

It’s peak was actually around 1.4 million, which people who support the reopening cite as positive growth. However if you look at the passenger numbers over the 17 years it was open there was no linear growth, what it shower was peaks and troughs as airlines came and went. I reckon the average over those years would have been around or just below 1mppa not including the Covid closure.

Stated breakeven point using passengers as a metric was somewhere between 2.5 and 3mppa. It may have been possible to run at a profit without the passenger ops but this would require a degradation in service levels to remove overheads which would preclude the handling of passenger flights (and probably turn their backs on the target freight market).

It’s for this reason I believe when Coppard says it can’t be built on cheap holidays abroad he’s being disingenuous. The support for the reopening is for passenger flights.

Not even close. Assuming that all homes average 4 people, that's only 16,000 more seats filled if they all went on a holiday every year, which equates to around 86 737-800 flights or about an extra flight on average every 4 days.

DSA topped out at a maximum of around 1.9 million passengers in their best year, but where nowhere near close to making a profit. Estimates at the time to break even where closer to 3 million, so 16K more seats won't even create a ripple on the coffee of a

 

[sycns]

Good news the funding from SYMCA has been approved!

Doncaster Airport Moves Step Closer To Take-Off After Funding Agreed - City of Doncaster Council

www.doncaster.gov.uk

 

[pug1]

Good news the funding from SYMCA has been approved!

Doncaster Airport Moves Step Closer To Take-Off After Funding Agreed - City of Doncaster Council

www.doncaster.gov.uk

Glad I don’t pay council tax in Doncaster..

 

[mpthomson]

Good news the funding from SYMCA has been approved!

Doncaster Airport Moves Step Closer To Take-Off After Funding Agreed - City of Doncaster Council

www.doncaster.gov.uk

Terrible news if you’re a South Yorkshire council taxpayer that’s going to be footing the mid-high 7 figure losses (from CDC’s own business case and described as ‘overly-optimistic’ by the Subsidy Advice Unit) for at least the next ten years (agains, from CDC’s own projections).

It’s not as if CDC has failing safeguarding and social care provision is it, and that the money would be far better spent there?

 

[pug1]

Terrible news if you’re a South Yorkshire council taxpayer that’s going to be footing the mid-high 7 figure losses (from CDC’s own business case and described as ‘overly-optimistic’ by the Subsidy Advice Unit) for at least the next ten years (agains, from CDC’s own projections).

It’s not as if CDC has failing safeguarding and social care provision is it, and that the money would be far better spent there?

I noticed a few comments among those lines from concerned locals on Coppards social media outlets today. He brushed them off because, as is indeed the case, this is mostly Gainshare money that can not be invested back into public services.

However this only tells half the story. Judging by historic financial performance the airport lost around £10million per year not including capital investment. So with reopening the airport and the costs that will come along with that, there’s not going to be much change left to shoulder the losses. So in that case where does the money come from to continue operating the airport when it inevitably fails to ‘brush its own teeth’?.

Most of the money could be invested in numerous worthy public/private ventures that would have tangible immediate benefits and crucially would not rely on council tax bailouts when the money runs dry.

Fully expecting a lot of spin and bluster to cover up the fact that they’ve just signed off on an extremely high risk project that even their own papers say has a high chance of failure.

Interesting to see whether any legal challenges arise due to the clear intent to distort the market.

 

[thejuggler]

As suspected this will be more about provision of a new industrial park and housing development.

Comments I've heard that it 'didn't have time to grow' make no sense. It was open for 17 years.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Good news the funding from SYMCA has been approved!

Doncaster Airport Moves Step Closer To Take-Off After Funding Agreed - City of Doncaster Council

www.doncaster.gov.uk

I don't think everyone will agree that its "good news"

 

[ainsworth74]

Well, I pity the poor people of Doncaster that are the hook for this just as we are up here on Teesside for our ludicrous airport.

 

[AlastairFraser]

As suspected this will be more about provision of a new industrial park and housing development.

Comments I've heard that it 'didn't have time to grow' make no sense. It was open for 17 years.

Do you anticipate there is going to be a lot of S106 funding used to support the airport and ancillary public transport projects?

 

[mpthomson]

I noticed a few comments among those lines from concerned locals on Coppards social media outlets today. He brushed them off because, as is indeed the case, this is mostly Gainshare money that can not be invested back into public services.

However this only tells half the story. Judging by historic financial performance the airport lost around £10million per year not including capital investment. So with reopening the airport and the costs that will come along with that, there’s not going to be much change left to shoulder the losses. So in that case where does the money come from to continue operating the airport when it inevitably fails to ‘brush its own teeth’?.

Most of the money could be invested in numerous worthy public/private ventures that would have tangible immediate benefits and crucially would not rely on council tax bailouts when the money runs dry.

Fully expecting a lot of spin and bluster to cover up the fact that they’ve just signed off on an extremely high risk project that even their own papers say has a high chance of failure.

Interesting to see whether any legal challenges arise due to the clear intent to distort the market.

Indeed. The capital funding may be from gainshare, the mitigation for operating losses certainly isn’t, it’s from the normal council budget.

 

[pug1]

Indeed. The capital funding may be from gainshare, the mitigation for operating losses certainly isn’t, it’s from the normal council budget.

Is that confirmed? Coppards made a big deal about how the airport will have to stand on its own two feet once this pot runs out.

Interestingly today he played the commercial sensitivity card, he said he couldn’t consider performance based funding tranches because it would undermine confidence in the airlines they’re in negotiations with. In other words toe the line or else.

I still am not confident one bit that they know what they’re getting themselves into. I know for a fact there be been a few chancers involved in this so far and I feel he’s being led by them.

 

[daodao]

The creation of all powerful metro mayors has enabled grandiose transport projects to be promoted that are out of proportion to local or regional needs and which result in limited local funds being diverted from more essential local services.

Doncaster Sheffield Airport is but one example. Other English examples include Teesside Airport, the Leeds/Bradford Tramway and heavy/light rail tunnelling schemes in Greater Manchester.

There seems to be little accountability to local elected councillors. Of the 55 Doncaster City councillors, 36 now represent Reform, a party not known for supporting profligacy.

 

[deltic]

The creation of all powerful metro mayors has enabled grandiose transport projects to be promoted that are out of proportion to local or regional needs and which result in limited local funds being diverted from more essential local services.

Doncaster Sheffield Airport is but one example. Other English examples include Teesside Airport, the Leeds/Bradford Tramway and heavy/light rail tunnelling schemes in Greater Manchester.

There seems to be little accountability to local elected councillors. Of the 55 Doncaster City councillors, 36 now represent Reform, a party not known for supporting profligacy.

The public transport schemes are exactly what our cities need to grow, every comparison with comparable-sized European cities show those in the UK lag way behind in terms of productivity and a key reason is poor local transport. As everyone knows Leeds is the largest city in Europe without a mass transit system. The problem is not that metro mayors have grandiose schemes for their areas but that they have to go with their begging bowls to Whitehall all the time. If they could raise money locally then they could actually deliver schemes and would also be accountable for them and some of the more crazy ones would be less likely to progress.

 

[zwk500]

The creation of all powerful metro mayors has enabled grandiose transport projects to be promoted that are out of proportion to local or regional needs and which result in limited local funds being diverted from more essential local services.

Doncaster Sheffield Airport is but one example. Other English examples include Teesside Airport, the Leeds/Bradford Tramway and heavy/light rail tunnelling schemes in Greater Manchester.

Leeds-Bradford tramway and a Pre-Metro underground tramway in central Manchester are not out of proportion to local or regional needs, to be fair. Whether they should be the priority level they are is another question.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There seems to be little accountability to local elected councillors.

That's simply not true.

Each local council has to vote to approve its share of the expenditure, and any council which disagrees with the expenditure is free to vote against it. We've seen this in Greater Manchester with Stockport Borough Council, in particular, being reticent to agree to extra spending on Metrolink when they perceive that don't get much benefit from it. In London, Bromley and Bexley Councils often take a similar view, especially when there's a Labour Mayor.

If Doncaster City Council don't want to pay for the project, they can vote against paying for it.

Of course they won't because DSA is really Doncaster City Council's baby.

 

[pug1]

That's simply not true.

Each local council has to vote to approve its share of the expenditure, and any council which disagrees with the expenditure is free to vote against it. We've seen this in Greater Manchester with Stockport Borough Council, in particular, being reticent to agree to extra spending on Metrolink when they perceive that don't get much benefit from it. In London, Bromley and Bexley Councils often take a similar view, especially when there's a Labour Mayor.

If Doncaster City Council don't want to pay for the project, they can vote against paying for it.

Of course they won't because DSA is really Doncaster City Council's baby.

Do you know exactly what the rules are on this? So we know that the City of Doncaster Council is majority Reform councillors now, however the elected Mayor is Labour and the airport was her project and the thing she was voted in on a very slim majority to deliver. It was my understanding, perhaps incorrectly, that it will not need to go for further vote at Council level because Ros Jones has the authority to make those decisions without unanimous consent.

Is this incorrect? Does this still need to go for final vote at a local level?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Do you know exactly what the rules are on this?

The relationships between the City Region authorities and the local authorities are not straightforward, and my understanding may be mistaken.

The funding for the airport is coming from the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority (the city region authority) and the Board of that organisation comprises of the directly-elected Mayor and also the leaders of Doncaster, Sheffield, Rotherham, and Barnsley councils. The leader of Doncaster council is the directly-elected mayor Ros Jones, who chooses the council's cabinet, even though the majority of Doncaster's councillors are Reform. She got in on a manifesto of getting the airport re-opened.

In that regard, what Reform councillors may or may not think is largely irrelevant- it isn't Doncaster City Council's money, it is the SYMCA's money.

The SYMCA gets most of its money from central government, so again what Doncaster City Council's councillors think about this is largely irrelevant. However the SYMCA does get a chunk of money from the local authorities via a transport precept levied on the local authorities, and that's where the local authorities do get some sway. My understanding is that they can refuse to approve the precept if they disagree with how it is being spent- that's something the likes of Bromley and Stockport councils have used before as a negotiating tool.

 

[pug1]

The relationships between the City Region authorities and the local authorities are not straightforward, and my understanding may be mistaken.

The funding for the airport is coming from the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority (the city region authority) and the Board of that organisation comprises of the directly-elected Mayor and also the leaders of Doncaster, Sheffield, Rotherham, and Barnsley councils. The leader of Doncaster council is the directly-elected mayor Ros Jones, who chooses the council's cabinet, even though the majority of Doncaster's councillors are Reform. She got in on a manifesto of getting the airport re-opened.

In that regard, what Reform councillors may or may not think is largely irrelevant- it isn't Doncaster City Council's money, it is the SYMCA's money.

The SYMCA gets most of its money from central government, so again what Doncaster City Council's councillors think about this is largely irrelevant. However the SYMCA does get a chunk of money from the local authorities via a transport precept levied on the local authorities, and that's where the local authorities do get some sway. My understanding is that they can refuse to approve the precept if they disagree with how it is being spent- that's something the likes of Bromley and Stockport councils have used before as a negotiating tool.

Apparently because it’s Doncaster residents that stand to subsidise it should the (seemingly spurious) optimistic projections not be met, then it must be passed by the council in a vote to be held at the planned full council meeting on 25th November. It’s hard to see that they’d vote it down, because they would forever be tarnished with the reputation of being the ones who refused to back the airport.

So with this and possible legal action, I would suggest the airports future is far from certain even disregarding the probably lack of appetite from airlines to actually serve it.

 

[Killingworth]

"Up to £160m" sounds alarm bells. Pouring good moey after bad?

I foresee it becoming £160m for starters as the precursor for continued further pleading for yet more funds to keep the project going for another 3 or 5 years, for ever, with elusive profitability just in sight.

All the logical reasons why not have been very well aired earlier in this thread. The emotional desire for flexible subsidised holiday flights is backed by lesser numbers of business users who need multiple destinations at frequent times to match their immediate specific needs.

Holidaymakers will change destinations and dates when offered at a good price by tour operators. Business users choose airports and airlines to get them to appointments in a city at a set time. DSA will struggle to offer that choice ahead of the more established airports.

This last weekend I stayed near Newcastle Airport. 10 flights tomorrow morning before 7.00 starting with Heathrow to a very wide range of destinations for business and leisure. Multiple flights are arriving all day. DSA is unlikely to ever be able to offer half that range. (There were 7 tour buses at our hotel, Norwegians had come to join a cruise from the Tyne. Their travel agent had flown some of them into Edinburgh and included Alnwick and Bamburgh in their tour! An example of ways planes and cruise ships can sometimes be filled.)

Quite how DSA can offer and fill enough flights for viability remains a mystery to me - wishful thinking?

There are far more reservations about the finances in Sheffield, Barnsley and Rotherham than in Doncaster. There's unlikely to be opposition from Sheffield in particular. They'll need support from Doncaster for future projects in their areas. Voting against DSA would be diplomatically unwise. Neutral opposition offering an outside distant party on which to pin blame might not come amiss. But no chance of the Chancellor or PM as they're very publicly supporting the proposals.

 

[pug1]

"Up to £160m" sounds alarm bells. Pouring good moey after bad?

I foresee it becoming £160m for starters as the precursor for continued further pleading for yet more funds to keep the project going for another 3 or 5 years, for ever, with elusive profitability just in sight.

All the logical reasons why not have been very well aired earlier in this thread. The emotional desire for flexible subsidised holiday flights is backed by lesser numbers of business users who need multiple destinations at frequent times to match their immediate specific needs.

Holidaymakers will change destinations and dates when offered at a good price by tour operators. Business users choose airports and airlines to get them to appointments in a city at a set time. DSA will struggle to offer that choice ahead of the more established airports.

This last weekend I stayed near Newcastle Airport. 10 flights tomorrow morning before 7.00 starting with Heathrow to a very wide range of destinations for business and leisure. Multiple flights are arriving all day. DSA is unlikely to ever be able to offer half that range. (There were 7 tour buses at our hotel, Norwegians had come to join a cruise from the Tyne. Their travel agent had flown some of them into Edinburgh and included Alnwick and Bamburgh in their tour! An example of ways planes and cruise ships can sometimes be filled.)

Quite how DSA can offer and fill enough flights for viability remains a mystery to me - wishful thinking?

There are far more reservations about the finances in Sheffield, Barnsley and Rotherham than in Doncaster. There's unlikely to be opposition from Sheffield in particular. They'll need support from Doncaster for future projects in their areas. Voting against DSA would be diplomatically unwise. Neutral opposition offering an outside distant party on which to pin blame might not come amiss. But no chance of the Chancellor or PM as they're very publicly supporting the proposals.

Indeed there is support, but as you’ll be aware airlines aren’t stupid, they’ll be very cautious to commit to this given the history of poor route performance but compounded further by the uncertainty over the ownership model, the fact that Peel have a performance based break clause and the fact that a Reform government could actually pull the plug on it altogether in their race to bin off as many public investment projects as possible.

The pragmatic solution, and one that probably wouldn’t get much resistance, would be to somehow figure out a way of connecting Sheffield with Manchester Airport by rail offering speed, efficiency and flexibility. That would get enough users if it was set up tomorrow and would be a USP for Sheffield. Imagine being able to reach Manchester AirPort well within 60 minutes from the centre of Sheffield.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Indeed there is support, but as you’ll be aware airlines aren’t stupid, they’ll be very cautious to commit to this given the history of poor route performance but compounded further by the uncertainty over the ownership model, the fact that Peel have a performance based break clause and the fact that a Reform government could actually pull the plug on it altogether in their race to bin off as many public investment projects as possible.

The pragmatic solution, and one that probably wouldn’t get much resistance, would be to somehow figure out a way of connecting Sheffield with Manchester Airport by rail offering speed, efficiency and flexibility. That would get enough users if it was set up tomorrow and would be a USP for Sheffield. Imagine being able to reach Manchester AirPort well within 60 minutes from the centre of Sheffield.

If that Stockport to Manchester Airport tram train TfGM are proposing ever makes it off the blocks, that could provide a reasonable interchange opportunity for residents of Sheffield and other parts of the East Midlands.
You could also operate an express rail link bus from Hazel Grove direct to the airport with through ticketing from Sheffield, but it does come with the caveat that you would need to find space in the EMR and TPE paths for stops at Hazel Grove.
This bus-based option with suitable branding and vehicles would be the fastest option overall I think, it's about 35 mins Sheffield to Hazel Grove, and Hazel Grove to Manchester Airport bus station could be reliably done non-stop via the A555 in about 20-22 mins, so around an hour Sheffield to MAN.

 

[Killingworth]

The pragmatic solution, and one that probably wouldn’t get much resistance, would be to somehow figure out a way of connecting Sheffield with Manchester Airport by rail offering speed, efficiency and flexibility. That would get enough users if it was set up tomorrow and would be a USP for Sheffield. Imagine being able to reach Manchester AirPort well within 60 minutes from the centre of Sheffield.

Which is what we almost had until it was all changed after the Castlefield and Ordsall chord meltdown. Almost, but the necessary reversal at Piccadilly added quarter of an hour and there's no practical. way round that. Changing on Platforms 13/14 to ultimately reach the chaos of the airport with its broken travelators..................!!

Yes, DSA could have a lot of attractions.

 

[edwin_m]

Holidaymakers will change destinations and dates when offered at a good price by tour operators. Business users choose airports and airlines to get them to appointments in a city at a set time. DSA will struggle to offer that choice ahead of the more established airports.

As such a business traveller from time to time not based in the London area, it's very rare there is any real choice of flight times. You either set your appointment time to match the available flights from a reasonably convenient UK airport, or accept the need for a hotel on the night before or after or even both. I think the lack of attractiveness for DSA for business travellers will be more about not having any flights to more than a handful of business destinations - and any that did happen would be those that are also short haul "city break" destinations such as Dublin and Amsterdam.

Which is what we almost had until it was all changed after the Castlefield and Ordsall chord meltdown. Almost, but the necessary reversal at Piccadilly added quarter of an hour and there's no practical. way round that. Changing on Platforms 13/14 to ultimately reach the chaos of the airport with its broken travelators..................!!

Yes, DSA could have a lot of attractions.

DSA is never going to offer the range of flights that Manchester does, so getting there will still be necessary. DSA access will be hopeless by public transport unless still more money is spent subsidising a frequent and nearly empty bus service, and for someone prepared to drive EMA is less than an hour away.

 

[pug1]

As such a business traveller from time to time not based in the London area, it's very rare there is any real choice of flight times. You either set your appointment time to match the available flights from a reasonably convenient UK airport, or accept the need for a hotel on the night before or after or even both. I think the lack of attractiveness for DSA for business travellers will be more about not having any flights to more than a handful of business destinations - and any that did happen would be those that are also short haul "city break" destinations such as Dublin and Amsterdam.

DSA is never going to offer the range of flights that Manchester does, so getting there will still be necessary. DSA access will be hopeless by public transport unless still more money is spent subsidising a frequent and nearly empty bus service, and for someone prepared to drive EMA is less than an hour away.

Exactly this. Theres a load of non aviation business leaders in the Doncaster area that have been told to support reopening the airport. Doncaster Chamber claim they have unanimous support from their members (though this is not the case, because there were some that are opposed to it), this is because they’ve been told about the global connectivity it will bring.

It’s madness, there will be no global connectivity. Manchester provides that, I believe it’s one of the reasons DSA failed to attract and sustain a route to a hub, the Sheffield business traveller can already reach Manchester with its wide array of options. Anyone in Doncaster or further east has the KLM at Humberside.

So stands to reason that there is a ready made demand for better access to Manchester, whatever that may be. They continue to make massive errors of judgement here.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Apparently because it’s Doncaster residents that stand to subsidise it should the (seemingly spurious) optimistic projections not be met, then it must be passed by the council in a vote to be held at the planned full council meeting on 25th November. It’s hard to see that they’d vote it down, because they would forever be tarnished with the reputation of being the ones who refused to back the airport.

Yeah, it isn't straightforward. Teesside is owned by the metro mayor authority (TCVA) and so it is TCVA who are on the hook for it. But Doncaster's lease is owned by Doncaster City Council so it would be that council on the hook later.

That would also give Reform some leverage- if they don't like it they can vote against it. Although as the council already own the lease...

But the £160m funding isn't coming from Doncaster council, it is coming from the SYMCA, so what Reform think about that is largely irrelevant.

I don't think Reform would actually be against the airport, though. There's a reason why the most populist mayor of the lot, Ben Houchen, is so pro-airport, even though Teesside Airport is so much of a basket case that it makes DSA look like Changi.

As with Houchen, my expectation is that Reform would just look for ways to, er, "collaboratively work" with favoured local party funders entrepreneurs.