Does Ticket cover for Manchester metro?

[John @ home]

The Routeing Guide applies to tickets, not journeys.

This is the kernel of our disagreement. I believe the Routeing Guide applies to journeys because the first sentence of the Routeing Guide home page states:

Routeing Guide

Follow the steps below to identify the permitted routes for the journey that you wish to make.

http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

Why do you believe that the Routeing Guide applies to tickets?

 

[First class]

The question of restrictions/routeing applying to tickets or journeys is interesting.

The £12 minimum fare on the YP card applies to the journey, so 2 x £6 tickets would meet that condition, enabling split tickets.

I'm not sure ATOC see a difference between journey and ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).

Care to answer my question now?

 

[snail]

Condition 19 says that you can use two tickets to make a longer journey provided the tickets cover the entire journey being made.

If I have tickets from Manchester to Newton-le-Willows and Newton-le-Willows to Liverpool and my journey is Manchester to Liverpool, I can't get an EMT train between Manchester and Liverpool via Warrington, because the entire journey is not covered by my tickets! But what you seem to be saying is that because my journey is Manchester-Liverpool I should be fine because the Routeing Guide (and hence the NRCoC) says Manchester-Liverpool via Warrington is fine. You're talking rubbish I'm afraid!

Surely it's a combination of the two: you can combine tickets into one journey, but each ticketed sub-journey must be on an acceptable route for that ticket.

What's also unclear here is whether a Manchester Stations ticket is valid to ANY Manchester station or just the first one you enter (cf London Terminals). I regularly travel on a ticket to MANCHESTER STNS via Deansgate and Oxford Road to Piccadilly. By your logic my ticket is invalid for travel beyond Deansgate or Oxford Road, whichever the train calls at first. I hope the G4S RPIs at Piccadilly don't get to hear of this, they would have a field day!

 

[yorkie]

What's also unclear here is whether a Manchester Stations ticket is valid to ANY Manchester station or just the first one you enter (cf London Terminals).

It may be neither of those two options, depending on the journey. There is certainly no rule that a ticket is valid to "any" of the stations, but also there is certainly no rule that a ticket is only valid to the first one you enter! Indeed, at Britain's busiest terminal, Waterloo, most arriving customers would have already gone through a London Terminal already (and have the option of proceeding to another).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....By your logic my ticket is invalid for travel beyond Deansgate or Oxford Road, whichever the train calls at first....

I have no problem with people going to Deansgate, Oxford Road and Piccadilly as they are Manchester Stations, Salford Crescent is not a Manchester station though.

 

[northernrail2009]

Right i did my trip today and i had a normal off peak day Return ticket from Macclesfield and was not a virgin only ticket.

So i got to the metro at Picc and got on and there staff on board the tram who checked my ticket and i asked told him i was going to Vic and showed him both my Macc to Man and Man Vic to York tickets and he was fine with it.

So did not have to pay any extra so not sure if he should have done that or not but on my way back from York to Man vic i over heard the guard on the train telling people to just get on the Metro as there would be no staff checking tickets at 9pm on a sunday night!!!!

not the thing he should be telling people really.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Metrolink, like many TOCs are very inconsistent in these matters.

I have been on a tram across Manchester many times and witnessed 4 different scenarios like this. On each occasion I became aware by overhearing and observations that the passenger had a National Rail ticket that was NOT valid across Manchester Metrolink, the response varies into one of these 4 scenarios - each of which I have witnessed:

1) Passenger is advised that their train ticket is not valid and is escorted off at the next stop to purchase a single tram ticket from the machine at the normal price (singles for the city zone are the same price no matter where you get them from)

2) Passenger is advised that their train ticket is not valid and is told not to do it again with no further action this time.

3) Passenger's details are taken and they are instructed to pay the "Standard Fare" (Currently £100).

4) Inspector doesn't notice and says and does nothing.

 

[Lampshade]

It doesn't help that NRE routes you across Manchester via the Metrolink and doesn't advise that another ticket would be required.

 

[cuccir]

To be fair, I think that National Rail Enquiries itself is just about clear enough. For example, if I search for a journey from Rochdale to Buxton, a large warning exclamation mark appears, over which I am told that my ticket may not be valid. I don't think that's quite adequate, but it is close to being there - really, that warning text should be automatically visible if the site is showing any journey which can't be completed on one ticket.

However, if I either click through to buy on Nothern Rail's website, or search straight through Northern's site, a no time am I told that the ticket is not valid for the whole itinerary being shown. I don't think that's reasonable and if I was travelling, particularly with a printed itinerary, I'd expect at the very least that Northern would refund any 'standard fares' incurred.

 

[causton]

However, if I either click through to buy on Nothern Rail's website, or search straight through Northern's site, a no time am I told that the ticket is not valid for the whole itinerary being shown. I don't think that's reasonable and if I was travelling, particularly with a printed itinerary, I'd expect at the very least that Northern would refund any 'standard fares' incurred.

NRCOC says:

trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).

Now, afaik the only routing information is the itinerary given, and if Metrolink is shown in the itinerary and no other place says that it is not valid, then surely the ticket must be valid! If I were in that situation I would certainly reclaim the money off Northern if they are 'lying' in a sense...

 

[northwichcat]

The National Rail journey planner gives a warning:

I would be surprised if you hadn't received a similar message somewhere in the booking process.

@NorthernRail2009: One thing you haven't told us is why you want to travel from Piccadilly? Are you getting there by train or some other way?

When I try to buy tickets for Knutsford to stations in Lancashire it quite often gives me an itienary going between Altrincham and Deansgate by tram on tickets like an Advance VWC + Connections with no Metrolink ticket warning.

 

[WatcherZero]

Just tried it and on NRE at least it does give the warning triangle telling you a Metrolink ticket may cost extra. There did used to be a Metrolink Sunday easement allowing you to use the Altrincham line with any rail ticket because at one point there was not heavy rail services from Altrincham to Manchester on a Sunday which continued even after the Sunday rail services were reinstated, dont know if its still in effect.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....There did used to be a Metrolink Sunday easement allowing you to use the Altrincham line with any rail ticket because at one point there was not heavy rail services from Altrincham to Manchester on a Sunday which continued even after the Sunday rail services were reinstated, dont know if its still in effect.

It is still in the Manual (FRPP).

 

[northwichcat]

Just tried it and on NRE at least it does give the warning triangle telling you a Metrolink ticket may cost extra.

It doesn't on ticket buying sites though e.g. RedSpottedHanky, Virgin Trains etc where people are actually likely to print the journey plan for their Advance ticket.

There did used to be a Metrolink Sunday easement allowing you to use the Altrincham line with any rail ticket because at one point there was not heavy rail services from Altrincham to Manchester on a Sunday which continued even after the Sunday rail services were reinstated, dont know if its still in effect.

It's still printed in the Northern timetable as being valid. I thought when they put it in the Dec 08 timetable that they'd left it in by mistake but it turns out it wasn't a mistake.