Does "the railway" really want passengers back?

[Bensonby]

Sorry for a slightly "ranty" thread, but I'm mildly irritated. Next month I have to make a journey to the Welsh Borders on a weekday. I am weighing up going by car or by train. I used to be a regular user of the West Coast Mainline back in the mid 2000s and enjoy the train journey. However, I was 50/50 regarding whether it was worth going by car or by train - I live in Kent and the journey by train would be Kent - London (Euston) - Crewe - Welsh Borders. The train journey would be slightly quicker and more enjoyable and relaxing. The journey by car would be cheaper (much cheaper if I take someone else with me) and a bit more flexible.

The suggested itinerary has a 39 minute wait at Crewe. I asked Avanti via Twitter whether, if I travelled on a first class ticket, could I wait in the first class lounge at Crewe. The answer was a simple "no" with no real explanation. Now, this is a relatively minor issue and won't "tip" me one way or another. However, I see this as rather symptomatic of a railway that doesn't really "do" customer service and being needlessly customer-unfriendly: my query was hardly an unreasonable one and it would hardly cost the railway anything to allow passengers to wait in their lounge. For people like me, who are finely balanced about whether to take the car or train, it is rather off-putting. There are other, more egregious, examples of when the railway is "customer unfriendly" but this one just seems petty. So, are the railway really that bothered about attracting passengers back onto its services?

 

[duncanp]

I would go by train anyway, on a first class ticket if that is what you want.

You may find that the person in charge of the first class lounge at Crewe has a different opinion to that of the person operating Avanti's Twitter feed.

There is nothing one the website to indicate that you can't use the first class lounge, but I do know that the one at Birmingham New Street is only available to Avanti West Coast passengers. (eg. people travelling on LNWR to Liverpool can't use it)

So as long as you travel on Avanti, or have a ticket which is valid on Avanti services, I don't see a problem.

 

[Djgr]

If your ticket allows you to travel on Avanti trains then you can use the first class lounge at Crewe.

That said, don't get too excited. Last time I was there it was unstaffed and the coffee machine was out of order.

 

[jfowkes]

If your ticket allows you to travel on Avanti trains then you can use the first class lounge at Crewe.

This isn't true. The Avanti website says:

"*Please note our lounge opening hours may vary especially on Bank Holidays. First Class Lounges are available to access 1 hour before you travel.*

This is a stupid rule from a customer service POV. You could interpret it as "before any section of your journey that starts/ends with using Avanti first class", but they clearly interpret it as "before you travel with Avanti first class".

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I have just come back from North Wales and amazing, had a very pleasant trip there and back. My only concern was on the way back, my train from Llandudno Junction arrived 5+minutes late at Chester causing us nearly to miss our connection to Crewe but luckily, it was a simple cross-platform interchange. Had we had to go over the bridge, we would have missed it considering we had heavy baggage. We had our reserved seats there and back (Euston-Crewe), nobody sat in them and the Avanti journey was faultless.

Can't fault the TfW services either apart from one 2-car train that really should have been at least 4-car. My highlight (railway related) was a Class 67+Mark VI loco-hauled service from Chester to Llandudno Junction on the way there

Perhaps we got lucky....?

Of course, would have been an absolute nightmare had we travelled on the BH weekend with the closure of the southern end of the WCML which is why I chose to travel up on Friday and back yesterday (Tuesday)

 

[Runningaround]

If you pay for a first class ticket that should include use of that company's facility from start to finish and in-between. How stupid to exclude someone changing trains. Anyway it might be a blessing you could find better places around the station who actually welcome the business. You will if you drive as well.

 

[Djgr]

This isn't true. The Avanti website says:

"*Please note our lounge opening hours may vary especially on Bank Holidays. First Class Lounges are available to access 1 hour before you travel.*

This is a stupid rule from a customer service POV. You could interpret it as "before any section of your journey that starts/ends with using Avanti first class", but they clearly interpret it as "before you travel with Avanti first class".

I think they misinterpret it. Trust me you will have no issue accessing the lounge. The issue is more is it worth the bother?

 

[Western Gaffer]

If you pay for a first class ticket that should include use of that company's facility from start to finish and in-between. How stupid to exclude someone changing trains.

But surely the issue here is that the change is from an Avanti service to one run by a different TOC, so Avanti could effectively argue that the traveller is no longer a customer of theirs after alighting from their train - as well as the above quote, their website does also refer to first class bookings allowing "Access to pre-departure comfort and refreshments" in lounges, and "enjoy some pre-departure luxury in one of our First Class lounges".

Having said that, whether or not staff on the ground would be dogmatic enough to deny access is another story....

 

[wobman]

If the cost of the journey is important as you state I'm just wondering why travel first class ?
What is your destination and route ?

 

[jfowkes]

But surely the issue here is that the change is from an Avanti service to one run by a different TOC, so Avanti could effectively argue that the traveller is no longer a customer of theirs after alighting from their train - as well as the above quote, their website does also refer to first class bookings allowing "Access to pre-departure comfort and refreshments" in lounges, and "enjoy some pre-departure luxury in one of our First Class lounges"

The issue is not so much what the rules are, but are those rules good customer service? Does it entice people to use the railway?

The answer would seem to be no. At very low marginal cost per customer (probably just a cup of tea), they would perhaps get many more customers if they allowed using the lounge for customers changing off their services. Especially at a busy interchange like Crewe.

I could understand a bit if customers were ending their journey at Crewe, but even then a final cup of tea wouldn't be too much to ask if you've paid for a 1st class ticket.

 

[yorkie]

The suggested itinerary has a 39 minute wait at Crewe. I asked Avanti via Twitter whether, if I travelled on a first class ticket, could I wait in the first class lounge at Crewe. The answer was a simple "no" with no real explanation...

What ticket(s) will you hold?

Providing the tickets are valid for travel on Avanti via Crewe, I see no reason why the lounge at Crewe would reject the tickets.

Social media staff aren't always the best but staff 'on the ground' so to speak are generally much better. There will always be some exceptions (and they can be really dire and very noticeable) but most staff are accommodating.

 

[43066]

Providing the tickets are valid for travel on Avanti via Crewe, I see no reason why the lounge at Crewe would reject the tickets.

Indeed.

The only thing I can imagine that might prevent that, and would also explain the “no” from social media, would be if the Crewe room is known to be out of use for some reason on the day the OP is travelling.

Albeit that should of course have been fully explained by the social media team!

 

[Western Gaffer]

The issue is not so much what the rules are, but are those rules good customer service? Does it entice people to use the railway?

The answer would seem to be no. At very low marginal cost per customer (probably just a cup of tea), they would perhaps get many more customers if they allowed using the lounge for customers changing off their services. Especially at a busy interchange like Crewe.

I could understand a bit if customers were ending their journey at Crewe, but even then a final cup of tea wouldn't be too much to ask if you've paid for a 1st class ticket.

Yes, agreed that a strict enforcement of rules will rarely enhance customer service, I was just highlighting that the former do clearly envisage facility use only prior to departure.

 

[plugwash]

I presume the time limits on first class lounge use is a reaction to people buying cheap first class tickets (either an advance or something like a Manchester to Stockport ticket) and hanging out in the first class lounge all day.

Restricting first class lounges to one operator does seem silly for the railway as a whole. I presume it's a legacy of how privatisation was structured with the first class lounge being transferred to a single operator who have no incentive to let their rivals customers use it.

I can see the social media teams being in a tricky position, if they take a narrow interpretation of the rules then it looks like the railway are being customer unfriendly but if they take a broad interpretation of rules they risk causing conflict with staff on the ground.

 

[Runningaround]

But surely the issue here is that the change is from an Avanti service to one run by a different TOC, so Avanti could effectively argue that the traveller is no longer a customer of theirs after alighting from their train - as well as the above quote, their website does also refer to first class bookings allowing "Access to pre-departure comfort and refreshments" in lounges, and "enjoy some pre-departure luxury in one of our First Class lounges".

Having said that, whether or not staff on the ground would be dogmatic enough to deny access is another story....

They bought a ticket to use it's First Class service didn't they, the journey hasn't ended yet and the next leg has yet to begin, do they want to encourage passengers onto its trains or not?
Personally to me First Class on UK trains is so only by name not by what you get.

 

[Moonshot]

You may find on the day that no services are actually running anyway due to industrial action. Use the car

 

[Fyldeboy]

The answer would seem to be no. At very low marginal cost per customer (probably just a cup of tea), they would perhaps get many more customers if they allowed using the lounge for customers changing off their services. Especially at a busy interchange like Crewe.

I could understand a bit if customers were ending their journey at Crewe, but even then a final cup of tea wouldn't be too much to ask if you've paid for a 1st class ticket.

Could it be that lounge capacity is something they are keeping an eye on? I don't know the size of Crewe FCL but as you say, it is very busy. Allowing all those (ex-AWC) passengers heading for TfW or LNWR services might seriously affect the AWC-AWC passengers, who are still on their AWC journey.

 

[Western Gaffer]

They bought a ticket to use it's First Class service didn't they, the journey hasn't ended yet and the next leg has yet to begin, do they want to encourage passengers onto its trains or not?
Personally to me First Class on UK trains is so only by name not by what you get.

The Avanti portion of the journey will have ended, so a literal interpretation of their rules about lounge use prior to departure (of an Avanti service) would prevent access, but obviously a less dogmatic view would be to allow it if they're more interested in encouraging passengers rather than applying their rules strictly....

 

[Cantab26]

Whenever I’ve used the first class lounge at Crewe it’s been empty apart from me and on one occasion the dragon tried to refuse me entry when travelling on a First Anytime back to Scotland so it’s not just an issue about people travelling on cheap First Advance fares.

 

[jfowkes]

Could it be that lounge capacity is something they are keeping an eye on? I don't know the size of Crewe FCL but as you say, it is very busy. Allowing all those (ex-AWC) passengers heading for TfW or LNWR services might seriously affect the AWC-AWC passengers, who are still on their AWC journey.

That's true. I guess a caveat along the lines of "If your journey with AWC has ended, you may not be able to access the lounge during busy periods. We thank you for your understanding." would suffice there.

 

[Runningaround]

The Avanti portion of the journey will have ended, so a literal interpretation of their rules about lounge use prior to departure (of an Avanti service) would prevent access, but obviously a less dogmatic view would be to allow it if they're more interested in encouraging passengers rather than applying their rules strictly....

Would an airline be so pointlessly awkward? I can't imagine Emirates preventing the use of there lounge to First/Business class passengers who've just left if and changing onto another carrier. Or would they give x amount of time after you've landed in it's lounge anyway?

 

[Starmill]

It has always been custom and practice that lounges are available at the end of the journey in addition to the start.

 

[Blinkbonny]

Like every other bloody thing - "not since Covid."

The permanent excuse for every service downgrade over the last two years.

 

[Western Gaffer]

Would an airline be so pointlessly awkward? I can't imagine Emirates preventing the use of there lounge to First/Business class passengers who've just left if and changing onto another carrier. Or would they give x amount of time after you've landed in it's lounge anyway?

For what it's worth, Emirates' published policy is the same as Avanti's:

To access the lounge you’ll just need your boarding pass, and you can come and go as you please before your flight.

In both cases, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that there'd be some discretion shown, but as a concession rather than an entitlement....

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Restricting first class lounges to one operator does seem silly for the railway as a whole. I presume it's a legacy of how privatisation was structured with the first class lounge being transferred to a single operator who have no incentive to let their rivals customers use it.

Err.... can't really pin this on privatisation. BR didn't do lounges. This is a benefit that came with the new operators looking for things that customers really valued ....
For what it is worth, back in 2018, I asked if I could use the (small) Virgin lounge at Lime St from an inbound train. This was surprisingly, but very grudgingly, permitted. So there was just me, the lounge attendant and her mate there for c.30 mins until I left. Two of these three were chatting away. So one could join the dots about what this 'rule' was actually about.....!

 

[AlterEgo]

Would an airline be so pointlessly awkward? I can't imagine Emirates preventing the use of there lounge to First/Business class passengers who've just left if and changing onto another carrier. Or would they give x amount of time after you've landed in it's lounge anyway?

Welcome to another unexpected episode of “airlines are actually far more complicated than trains in almost every way, so please don’t use them as an analogy “

In the Airline world, generally no, you may not use the airline’s lounge* on landing to another carrier, unless it is in the same alliance.

Using Emirates business class into Dubai and changing there for an Air India flight to Delhi? Sorry but you can’t use the Emirates Lounge in Dubai.

*very very small number of exceptions worldwide including dedicated Arrivals Lounges but these tend to be landside.

 

[Runningaround]

Welcome to another unexpected episode of “airlines are actually far more complicated than trains in almost every way, so please don’t use them as an analogy “

In the Airline world, generally no, you may not use the airline’s lounge* on landing to another carrier, unless it is in the same alliance.

Using Emirates business class into Dubai and changing there for an Air India flight to Delhi? Sorry but you can’t use the Emirates Lounge in Dubai.

*very very small number of exceptions worldwide including dedicated Arrivals Lounges but these tend to be landside.

So on arrival at Dubai on your first class ticket you cannot head to Emirates lounge to wait for another flight, your lift into town or just to use the showers?

 

[70014IronDuke]

That's true. I guess a caveat along the lines of "If your journey with AWC has ended, you may not be able to access the lounge during busy periods. We thank you for your understanding." would suffice there.

Certainly a better reaction than "No" - as the OP indicated was the case!

 

[AlterEgo]

So on arrival at Dubai on your first class ticket you cannot head to Emirates lounge to wait for another flight, your lift into town or just to use the showers?

If your onward flight is not with Emirates or one of their partners - for example…if you book with Air India, no, you may not use the Emirates lounge while you wait for the flight you booked with Emirates’ competitor. There are additional caveats with many airlines about which flight number (in relation to codeshares) is on your boarding pass, and so on and so forth.

Dubai does not have an Emirates Arrivals lounge (arrivals lounges are typically found landside) so you can’t just hang around airside (you need to show a departing boarding pass to access). You can’t really just hang around airside anyway, you need to clear immigration and collect your bags and of course you won’t get back airside without a departing boarding pass. Emirates does have chauffeur service instead on arrival for most but not all business and first class tickets.

 

[yorkie]

OK I think we're done here.

In conclusion, if the customer holds tickets which are valid for travel with Avanti, there should be no issue accessing the lounge at Crewe.

However if the lounge is particularly busy, it's possible the staff there might restrict access to customers who are yet to commence their journey; I think that is unlikely to happen, though.

I have used the lounge at Crewe while interchanging, but I was issued with a combination of tickets which involved arriving & departing on Avanti so there was no issue there.

Unfortunately some staff employed in the rail industry don't always give accurate, comprehensive advice and/or don't have a positive/helpful attitude. This is by no means the majority however you really do notice it when you experience someone like that, which makes it seem disproportionately more common than it actually is.

If there are any further developments to this matter, please report this post and we can consider unlocking the thread.

If anyone would like advice regarding a journey they are making, feel free to create a new thread in the Trip Planning section.