Does/should shielding apply to the whole household?

[Mojo]

Would appreciate some thoughts with regard to the subject line.

My Mother received a letter the other week to advise that due to pre-existing health reasons, she should be shielding at home for at least twelve weeks. My Father took this letter to his employer to ask what to do and they said that he would be expected to report for duty as usual (he is frontline operational staff for a railway company), but they would, where possible, put him on duty at a location where he is the only employee.

Meanwhile, someone at a different railway company but also in a critical operational role, who's partner has recently (ie. after the letters were issued) been diagnosed with a serious medical condition which also requires her to be shielding. His employer has told him that he will not be expected to report for duty and will be on paid leave for the foreseeable.

Which approach is right? What is the actual Government policy and guidelines regarding other (healthy) household members and shielding? Any other views?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as the Government is concerned no, it doesn't. However, it may be necessary to consider that person spending time away from the rest of the family in the home - doing the "2m dance" and having separate plates etc is highly recommended I believe.

If some employers are doing better than that, good on them, though, just like the ones who are paying the extra 20% for furloughed staff.

 

[Mojo]

If some employers are doing better than that, good on them, though, just like the ones who are paying the extra 20% for furloughed staff.

But also quite unfortunate for that person’s colleagues who most likely will have to pick up the slack and work more, with no additional pay.

 

[Domh245]

COVID-19: guidance for people whose immune system means they are at higher risk

Guidance for people aged 12 and over whose immune system means they are at higher risk of serious illness if they become infected with COVID-19.

www.gov.uk

Quoting the relevant bit:

If you have someone else living with you, they are not required to adopt these protective shielding measures for themselves. They should do what they can to support you in shielding and they should stringently follow guidance on social distancing, reducing their contact outside the home. If you care for but don’t actually live with someone who is extremely vulnerable, you should still stringently follow guidance on social distancing.

ie - if you live with someone vulnerable, you can carry on as normal but be extra vigilant about social distancing and hand washing.

Of course, if you have the means to, you can always copy what's been done here!

A couple have found a novel way of living separately but staying close during the coronavirus outbreak.

Christian Brailsford works in the critical care unit at King's Mill Hospital in Nottinghamshire.

His wife Katie Brailsford has muscular dystrophy and had breast cancer, so he decided to live in a caravan on the drive to protect her.

"It's weird - you want to try having a hug through the window," said Mrs Brailsford.

"If you stand cheek to cheek at the window it actually kind of feels like you're having physical contact but you're not."
...

 

[Qwerty133]

As far as the Government is concerned no, it doesn't. However, it may be necessary to consider that person spending time away from the rest of the family in the home - doing the "2m dance" and having separate plates etc is highly recommended I believe.

If some employers are doing better than that, good on them, though, just like the ones who are paying the extra 20% for furloughed staff.

Unfortunately if you introduce blanket rules that tell everyone in a household to shield you get some people who will abuse the rules. I am aware of an individual who moved a generally well and independent family member who would have to shield shortly before the start of the period of shielding began purely with the intention of avoiding work for 12 weeks on the basis of living with a shielding person.

 

[hooverboy]

There are bound to be many instances of folks who are in critical services,who are living with vulnerable dependents and family.

Not just NHS,but they are very much on the front line of this battle.
So the only thing you can reasonably do is follow the guidelines.Keep going as best as possible,but be fastidious with sanitation and hygiene.

There may also be instances when the vulnerable person in question needs physical assistance to do certain tasks,so social distancing is not always an option.

I don't see the merit in trying to deliberately skive off work for 12 weeks,you'll be bored to tears by week 4 if you have nothing to do and can't go anywhere.

 

[Mogster]

I don't see the merit in trying to deliberately skive off work for 12 weeks,you'll be bored to tears by week 4 if you have nothing to do and can't go anywhere.

You’d think so but believe me boredom doesn’t seem to bother some people...

 

[Crossover]

But also quite unfortunate for that person’s colleagues who most likely will have to pick up the slack and work more, with no additional pay.

No different to that of a company who 'mass' furloughs staff, but operates, leaving the others to pick up the slack

 

[eastdyke]

Would appreciate some thoughts with regard to the subject line.

My Mother received a letter the other week to advise that due to pre-existing health reasons, she should be shielding at home for at least twelve weeks. My Father took this letter to his employer to ask what to do and they said that he would be expected to report for duty as usual (he is frontline operational staff for a railway company), but they would, where possible, put him on duty at a location where he is the only employee.

Meanwhile, someone at a different railway company but also in a critical operational role, who's partner has recently (ie. after the letters were issued) been diagnosed with a serious medical condition which also requires her to be shielding. His employer has told him that he will not be expected to report for duty and will be on paid leave for the foreseeable.

Which approach is right? What is the actual Government policy and guidelines regarding other (healthy) household members and shielding? Any other views?

Just spotted this thread so I am sorry for the slow reply.

I believe that each domestic situation needs to be assessed by the people in the household and a strict regime agreed between them. Clearly different households will have different options, some of which may be extremely difficult to achieve in practical terms.

Employers will have their own views on the needs of the workplace and may, as you have noted, not be consistent. In my opinion, employers have a moral duty to help support their employees where possible, in particular the bit I have emboldened. Both employers that you mention appear to have done just that, albeit with very different outcomes.

This is the relevant paragraph from a letter sent by a Hospital Consultant and dated 7th April:

The rest of the household should support you to stay safe and stringently follow guidance on social distancing, reducing their contact outside the home. In the home you should:

Minimise the time you spend with others in shared spaces (kitchen, bathroom and sitting areas) and keep shared spaces well ventilated.

Aim to keep 2 metres (3 steps) away from others and encourage them to sleep in a different bed where possible.

Use separate towels and, if possible, use a separate bathroom from the rest of the household, or clean the bathroom after every use.

Avoid using the kitchen when others are present, take your meals back to your room to eat where possible, and ensure all kitchenware is cleaned thoroughly.

If the rest of your household are able to follow this guidance, there is no need for them to take the full protective measures to keep you safe.

 

[MDB1images]

I've heard at at some rail depots it has applied on a case by case nature(sounds like good man management/awareness of the staff they manage)
Personally it doesn't bother me picking up jobs of someone in that instance.

 

[Bayum]

No. I’ve been told that the rest of the household has to practise strict social distancing. If possible, I was advised you sleep separately to anyone else, to use the bathroom before anyone else and the last person to wash it, first in the kitchen etc. Not be in the same place as my family for extended periods of time unless in a well ventilated area etc. I’m quite lucky because my bedroom and en-suite were built for me when my disability was at its worst, so it’s just business as normal. The only problem I’m having is not being able to leave the garden to do shopping, or exercise etc.

 

[Bayum]

My mum is down as my career, officially, and has been given slight leave and only to work when absolutely necessary. As she’s in the leisure industry, this hasn’t impacted on her too badly.

 

[Jozhua]

Funny about the whole "household" thing...

For purposes of a TV license, uni hall rooms are counted as a different household, so therefore if one of my flatmates got COVID, I'd be well within my right to continue business as normal? (Normal is a relative term, but basically not self quarantine)

All of my flatmates are gone, so this is hypothetical, but I think it would be unfair to charge us individually for TV, yet expect us to isolate as a household

 

[Bletchleyite]

For TV licences it is I believe based on the contract/ownership of the premises, so if you have separate contracts you need separate licences but if you have one it's one licence.

For COVID it's based on the level of interaction, effectively. You could see each room as one, but then you'd have to consider going to the kitchen or communal bathroom (if applicable) "leaving the house".

There's no reason they have to be the same. It's not about being fair, it's about choosing practical measures for each case.

 

[bussnapperwm]

If my family were to strictly abide by the shielding protection, my brothers and I would be confined to the bedroom/bathroom with nothing to do as the only working TV/all the laptops are downstairs and my mother (who is meant to be shielding) would be the only one who could eat, I'd have no clean clothing, and wouldn't be able to fix the wifi if it failed as it's by the TV (and the dog would be forced to stay outside).

 

[Qwerty133]

If my family were to strictly abide by the shielding protection, my brothers and I would be confined to the bedroom/bathroom with nothing to do as the only working TV/all the laptops are downstairs and my mother (who is meant to be shielding) would be the only one who could eat, I'd have no clean clothing, and wouldn't be able to fix the wifi if it failed as it's by the TV (and the dog would be forced to stay outside).

That's quite clearly not what it would mean. In such a case it would obviously make significantly more sense for the shielding individual to be the one contained to a singular room than expecting the rest of the house to do so (especially if you include the kitchen in the list of out of bounds rooms). It is also not exactly difficult to move the existing TV to a different room (or purchase new ones online) and laptops are specifically designed to be portable so could be used in just about any room.

 

[bussnapperwm]

That's quite clearly not what it would mean. In such a case it would obviously make significantly more sense for the shielding individual to be the one contained to a singular room than expecting the rest of the house to do so (especially if you include the kitchen in the list of out of bounds rooms). It is also not exactly difficult to move the existing TV to a different room (or purchase new ones online) and laptops are specifically designed to be portable so could be used in just about any room.

The thing is though that my mother does all the cooking/cleaning (last time I cooked something it was burnt, and the washer - it might as well be in double Dutch for all I know!)

Plus get a new TV? On a part time local government workers wage? You're having a laugh! Once my bills get paid (plus rent & poll tax)/the essentials have been got each month I only have enough money to commute to work!

I've even cut the pleasures on my salary deductions as far as I can - but I'm not getting rid of my union membership/pension contributions!)

 

[telstarbox]

I think you should try cooking again - it will be a good life skill and your mum will get a break!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The thing is though that my mother does all the cooking/cleaning (last time I cooked something it was burnt, and the washer - it might as well be in double Dutch for all I know!)

An excellent time for you to learn those valuable life skills for when you have a place of your own. Got to start somewhere!

 

[scotrail158713]

the washer - it might as well be in double Dutch for all I know!

Give it a go. You’ll be surprised how simple washing machines are to work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Give it a go. You’ll be surprised how simple washing machines are to work.

They do a lot more than you need them to, really. I just wash everything at 40 degrees, though if you have any white stuff it's worth doing that in a separate wash.

 

[Jozhua]

I doubt if one of you is in the same household and catches COVID-19 there is much of a chance you could stop others from getting it.

That said, some diseases are worse based on viral load, and considering a large number of symptomatic cases and healthcare workers appearing to succome more frequently, I do wonder if a lower viral load lessens the severity of the disease.

 

[Bayum]

The thing is though that my mother does all the cooking/cleaning (last time I cooked something it was burnt, and the washer - it might as well be in double Dutch for all I know!)

Plus get a new TV? On a part time local government workers wage? You're having a laugh! Once my bills get paid (plus rent & poll tax)/the essentials have been got each month I only have enough money to commute to work!

I've even cut the pleasures on my salary deductions as far as I can - but I'm not getting rid of my union membership/pension contributions!)

I'm 30 and I'm having to do exactly that. As the individual who needs to shield - why should everyone else give up their freedom of movement around the house when it's only me that needs to stay clear? I have spent 90% of my time in my room. Luckily, I had a room built on the groundfloor with an en-suite when I was younger and my disease was more severe. These are difficult times and everyone needs to make choices and to make sacrifices. There is nothing to stop your mum from spending time in her room and you cleaning, tidying and vacating the living room and kitchen when she's cooking dinner. You just need to work it out.

 

[Bayum]

I doubt if one of you is in the same household and catches COVID-19 there is much of a chance you could stop others from getting it.

That said, some diseases are worse based on viral load, and considering a large number of symptomatic cases and healthcare workers appearing to succome more frequently, I do wonder if a lower viral load lessens the severity of the disease.

Depends how well you practise social distancing I guess.

 

[hooverboy]

I doubt if one of you is in the same household and catches COVID-19 there is much of a chance you could stop others from getting it.

That said, some diseases are worse based on viral load, and considering a large number of symptomatic cases and healthcare workers appearing to succome more frequently, I do wonder if a lower viral load lessens the severity of the disease.

if one of you is in the house,and somebody in that household catches covid, the rules are very clear...for illness, even if only suspected.
1) whole household self isolates. minimum 2 weeks,unless vulnerable inhabitant,in which case 12 weeks.no outbound travel at all,even for essentials.Use online delivery only . Designate as safe drop off area and keep well sanitised.
2)you MUST report this to your employer immediately.they should,if following procedure, implement a shut down of at least the department where you are likely to have come into contact with people,if not the building in question.

 

[Bletchleyite]

if one of you is in the house,and somebody in that household catches covid, the rules are very clear...for illness, even if only suspected.
1) whole household self isolates. minimum 2 weeks,unless vulnerable inhabitant,in which case 12 weeks.no outbound travel at all,even for essentials.Use online delivery only . Designate as safe drop off area and keep well sanitised.
2)you MUST report this to your employer immediately.they should,if following procedure, implement a shut down of at least the department where you are likely to have come into contact with people,if not the building in question.

Neither of those is wholly correct, in particular you are misunderstanding the 12 week thing and (2) is a matter of company risk assessment and policy.

 

[hooverboy]

Neither of those is wholly correct, in particular you are misunderstanding the 12 week thing and (2) is a matter of company risk assessment and policy.

please give me your assessment.
The company I'm working for at the moment has had 3 recent illnesses.2 suspected as COVID.
1 case is partner is high risk group, the other is partner works in A+E at local hospital and went down with something.
I've been working from home for the past fortnight and got back to work this week...even though I am in the "essential" bracket...I think I said before telecom infrastructure is my field of employment,and we have in place strict segregation of departments now....ie entering/leaving from seperate entrances, no communal areas like cafeterias and break areas, sanitation zones to lube up with hand gel and reduced manning so only critical staff in the building,the rest work remotely, so only the hands-on (they have their own test areas anyway so social distancing not an issue..as it happens a lot of our hardware is silver plated so we routinely use smocks and protective gloves) and goods in/out guys present, but admin done remotely.
All staff are reduced or rostered manning so no duplication of roles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

please give me your assessment.

COVID-19 symptoms and what to do

Find out about the symptoms of COVID-19, what to do if you or your child has them and when to get medical help.

www.nhs.uk

 

[Domh245]

Just to clarify the point about self isolating - as soon as anyone in the house starts showing symptoms, the rest of the household goes into isolation for 14 days. If after 14 days no symptoms have developed then you can stop self isolating again, but as soon as symptoms develop, that person must self isolate for 7 days (meaning that if they develop symptoms on day 14 of their self-isolation following someone developing symptoms, they will not be allowed to leave the house until day 22)

The symptom 'induced' self-isolation is purely to stop the spread from (presumed) active cases to the population. The 12 week self-isolation is to try and shield vulnerable people from catching it - they are not the same.

COVID-19 symptoms and what to do

Find out about the symptoms of COVID-19, what to do if you or your child has them and when to get medical help.

www.nhs.uk

Indeed, NHS advice is that if you start showing symptoms and live with a vulnerable person, where possible they should try to move in with other friends or family for the duration of the 14 day isolation period (which I'll admit, seems a bit counter intuitive as there's a decent chance of them spreading it, but it will potentially reduce the chance of them catching it)

 

[hooverboy]

Indeed, NHS advice is that if you start showing symptoms and live with a vulnerable person, where possible they should try to move in with other friends or family for the duration of the 14 day isolation period (which I'll admit, seems a bit counter intuitive as there's a decent chance of them spreading it, but it will potentially reduce the chance of them catching it)

that bit does seem a bit counter-productive doesn't it?....that way you run the risk of transmitting it to other unsuspecting victims.Not exactly coherent advice.