Does rail have a future for parcels distribution?

[Western 52]

Some of us are old enough to remember the days when the railways handled considerable parcels traffic. From the premium “Red Star” service to the more mundane “Rail Express Parcels”, parcels trains served most major locations, and were also carried in the brake vans on many passenger services. There was also the Royal Mail parcels traffic until (I think) 1986.

With the recent growth in internet shopping, and the current road-based parcels companies saying they are short of staff and now paying a lot more for fuel, is there a market for the railways to get back into the parcels business in some way? Maybe the greener climate agenda could be a catalyst to help the railways grow this business?

 

[deltic]

Would need a way to better automate the handling of parcels on and off trains. Many major stations that used to handle parcels have lost the parcel roads that gave direct access to the platforms so probably looking at Amazon warehouse to regional distribution centre type operations eg long distance bulk carrying only. What BR used to do for some of the Northern mail order companies in Oldham and Sunderland which dispatched half a dozen trains a day around the network.

 

[Gloster]

Today’s Private Eye (No. 1560) has a small item about how Network Rail has just written off a £22 million loan to Doddle Parcel Services Ltd: including interest, the write off is over £31 million. Doddle was to open counters at stations where online shopping items could be collected and returned. Doddle’s directors received £1.1 million over three years and Network Rail...

Carrying parcels by passenger train would be a problem as there is very little space on trains, too few staff at stations to load, unload and transfer parcels and no offices for customers to visit. Using parcel vans would involve building them first and probably also new locos. Parcels DMUs would be possible, but probably only on a few routes where there was plenty of traffic offering.

Carrying parcels from distribution centres would be different from when BR distributed mail order products and catalogues. Then there was a network of small parcels depots all over the country to which vans would run, with parcels being transhipped in BRUTEs so that there was national coverage. A new system might build a few centres and bulk load a between them, but there would still be a lot of road mileage to get the parcels to and from the centres.

 

[pdeaves]

With the recent growth in internet shopping, and the current road-based parcels companies saying they are short of staff and now paying a lot more for fuel, is there a market for the railways to get back into the parcels business in some way? Maybe the greener climate agenda could be a catalyst to help the railways grow this business?

Have you just (re-)invented Orion's operating concept? (Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing!)

 

[zwk500]

Today’s Private Eye (No. 1560) has a small item about how Network Rail has just written off a £22 million loan to Doddle Parcel Services Ltd: including interest, the write off is over £31 million. Doddle was to open counters at stations where online shopping items could be collected and returned. Doddle’s directors received £1.1 million over three years and Network Rail...

My understanding was that Doddle was not intended, at least at first, to move parcels by rail. It was essentially an amazon pick-up counter, for which the idea was sound but I think the timing was somewhat unfortunate.

Back to the OP, keep an eye on Orion/ROG parcels service: https://orion.railopsgroup.co.uk/

 

[The Planner]

Add on that Royal Mail are looking at/will be going in and out of DIRFT at some point too.

 

[A0]

Add on that Royal Mail are looking at/will be going in and out of DIRFT at some point too.

But that's a bulk processing hub which is being built - so will be bulk shipment between there and other hubs such as the one they've opened near Warrington. It won't be for delivery to parcel counters at stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding was that Doddle was not intended, at least at first, to move parcels by rail. It was essentially an amazon pick-up counter, for which the idea was sound but I think the timing was somewhat unfortunate.

Agreed. It was a great idea, and one I'd been pushing for a while. The problem was that it was much more economic to provide that same service at local shops (DPD/Hermes/Yodel), Post Offices (Royal Mail) or unstaffed lockers (Amazon) and so those ideas won out.

Had the railway done it at booking offices instead of dedicated shops it could well have worked, but goodness knows how much the more militant staff would have shouted about that, despite it being something that could have helped protect booking offices.

 

[swt_passenger]

We had a long thread about this only a few weeks ago, most people just couldn’t see much extra freight or parcels happening, has anything actually changed?

I think this is the thread, it started out about freight but moved on towards parcels:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/end-of-the-golden-age-of-road-haulage-could-create-opportunities-for-rail.219603/

 

[6Gman]

Agreed. It was a great idea, and one I'd been pushing for a while. The problem was that it was much more economic to provide that same service at local shops (DPD/Hermes/Yodel), Post Offices (Royal Mail) or unstaffed lockers (Amazon) and so those ideas won out.

Had the railway done it at booking offices instead of dedicated shops it could well have worked, but goodness knows how much the more militant staff would have shouted about that, despite it being something that could have helped protect booking offices.

And goodness knows how much people in a queue wanting to buy a ticket would have shouted about that when the booking clerk had to trail off looking for someone's parcel.



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2021 ==

Carrying parcels by passenger train would be a problem as there is very little space on trains, too few staff at stations to load, unload and transfer parcels and no offices for customers to visit. Using parcel vans would involve building them first and probably also new locos. Parcels DMUs would be possible, but probably only on a few routes where there was plenty of traffic offering.

There's probably not enough space at some stations these days either given the increases in passenger volumes.

Also I have a feeling those parcels trolleys that used to roam our major stations would be an unacceptable these days on safety grounds.

 

[zwk500]

There's probably not enough space at some stations these days either given the increases in passenger volumes.

I'd imagine at stations with enough volume to make it economic there's a room or office somewhere in the back that could be used if required.

Also I have a feeling those parcels trolleys that used to roam our major stations would be an unacceptable these days on safety grounds.

Major stations seem to cope fairly well with the big 4-wheeled bins on platforms and the mobility assistance vehicles. Not sure why parcel trolleys would be any different? With both of these points the key constraint will be staff to move the parcels on and off the train - either you have extra people, who are then idle between trains, or you ask existing station staff to do it but they then have to drop what they're doing when the parcel train comes in to turn it round in good time.

 

[edwin_m]

Major stations seem to cope fairly well with the big 4-wheeled bins on platforms and the mobility assistance vehicles. Not sure why parcel trolleys would be any different? With both of these points the key constraint will be staff to move the parcels on and off the train - either you have extra people, who are then idle between trains, or you ask existing station staff to do it but they then have to drop what they're doing when the parcel train comes in to turn it round in good time.

An electric tractor trailing a "train" of BRUTEs would be something else entirely. It would probably end up being banned on safety grounds.

There is now enough economy of scale in the parcels market that several companies can offer delivery to the door at lower real-terms prices than Red Star charged for station to station. The likes of Hermes and Amazon also offer collection points as mentioned above and all the couriers will collect from anywhere for a small extra fee, because once the people and vans are out there the cost of adding this service is marginal. These services are far more convenient for most people than having to visit a station, particularly as only the more major stations could ever have either the space or the staffing to take on a parcels role. So I really don't think there's a place for traditional station-to-station parcels.

Where there may be an opportunity is offering dedicated trains for the trunk hauls of the courier firms and for bulk haul into city centre stations for others to do the local distribution. At least two companies have put money into converting EMUs for these duties, but we are yet to see if it's viable.

 

[zwk500]

An electric tractor trailing a "train" of BRUTEs would be something else entirely. It would probably end up being banned on safety grounds.

Again, why are BRUTEs different to the trains of Biffa Bins currently in use at major London terminals already? St Pancras quite regularly has 3/4 bins coupled together being driven around the ground floor.

There is now enough economy of scale in the parcels market that several companies can offer delivery to the door at lower real-terms prices than Red Star charged for station to station. The likes of Hermes and Amazon also offer collection points as mentioned above and all the couriers will collect from anywhere for a small extra fee, because once the people and vans are out there the cost of adding this service is marginal. These services are far more convenient for most people than having to visit a station, particularly as only the more major stations could ever have either the space or the staffing to take on a parcels role. So I really don't think there's a place for traditional station-to-station parcels.

Agree entirely

Where there may be an opportunity is offering dedicated trains for the trunk hauls of the courier firms and for bulk haul into city centre stations for others to do the local distribution. At least two companies have put money into converting EMUs for these duties, but we are yet to see if it's viable.

Agree, do we know when Orion are planning to launch their first city-centre full-service operations?