Does NR Enquiries Think Passengers Are Idiots?

[westv]

From today's warning about possible disruption on SWR:-

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/194065.aspx

"Furthermore, as trains will take longer to pass through these sections, signals will be red for longer. Drivers are not permitted to pass red signals, therefore, please do not be alarmed if your train stops whilst not a station"

 

[eastdyke]

From today's warning about possible disruption on SWR:-
"Furthermore, as trains will take longer to pass through these sections, signals will be red for longer. Drivers are not permitted to pass red signals, therefore, please do not be alarmed if your train stops whilst not a station"

An attempt to head off possible attempts at self-detrainment?
(and any such passengers are idiots!)

 

[Mag_seven]

Drivers are not permitted to pass red signals

[pedant]
Unless permitted in certain circumstances by the signaller (e.g. a track circuit failure or whatever)
[/pedant]

 

[AM9]

From today's warning about possible disruption on SWR:-

"Furthermore, as trains will take longer to pass through these sections, signals will be red for longer. Drivers are not permitted to pass red signals, therefore, please do not be alarmed if your train stops whilst not a station"

Why should it be wrong to remind passengers that there may be unexpected delays, etc., in times of operating problems.
I presume that SWR realise that rail enthusiasts and experts represent a minority of their customers, so it is sensible to warn them how abnormal weather conditions may affect their journeys. There's no nefor you to read the messages if you think that they insult your intelligence.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I’d imagine this particular statement is in response to the various de-training which occurred during the snow earlier this year.

 

[otomous]

I’d imagine this particular statement is in response to the various de-training which occurred during the snow earlier this year.

I fear so. In my most recent incident stuck between stations, even though it wasn't for that long, and we had power, aircon, toilets etc, it was late, and I feared people detraining. First time ever I requested permission to return to the station before just in case, luckily I was still overlapping that section and the signaller was co-operative. Needless to say just as I got there I was able to get going again anyway. But a moving train is a happy (happier?) train. Despite me making several announcements there were still plenty of punters who apparently "hadn't been told anything."

 

[AlterEgo]

I don’t think people need to be told trains can’t pass red signals.

 

[westv]

Why should it be wrong to remind passengers that there may be unexpected delays, etc., in times of operating problems.
I presume that SWR realise that rail enthusiasts and experts represent a minority of their customers, so it is sensible to warn them how abnormal weather conditions may affect their journeys. There's no nefor you to read the messages if you think that they insult your intelligence.

So you are not ever so slightly alarmed that they think anybody could possibly be alarmed their train has stopped but not at a station?

 

[Ianno87]

I don't think it is written to treat passengers like idiots; just an explanation as un-technical and simple as possible. Simple = harder to argue with.

 

[Polarbear]

Believe me, there are quite a number of people out there, who think that's it's perfectly OK to drive through red traffic lights, level crossings & the lights protecting fire stations to name but three!

 

[westv]

I can perhaps understand the need for simple language but do they really need to tell people not to panic if the train stops?

 

[tsr]

I don’t think people need to be told trains can’t pass red signals.

It may be hard for many on this forum to believe, but I think (well, I know) a great deal of passengers believe that train drivers have a lot more leeway than they actually do. Most people have literally zero knowledge of the concepts of a Rule Book, operating irregularities, SPADs, "safety critical" duties, dispatch, and more - even many regular commuters who've spent decades ignoring anything which happens more than three inches away from their newspaper.

And why shouldn't they ignore stuff? They're passengers. Their focus is on whatever reason they need to get from A to B. They might want to sit down on the way. They probably want the train to be at the right temperature and have a toilet. They might want a drink and a chocolate bar. That's basically it. The signals could be pink with green spots on them, and the train could float sideways on a magic jelly cushion. (I never get a unit with a jelly cushion mod.)

I've seen many passengers ask the conductor why they're not at the front driving, because once they went on the DLR, and look, the same bloke/lady in a uniform can do all the stuff... and a bus driver sells tickets and stuff, so a train driver... same, huh?

Some people complain on Twitter that the train is overtaking another train and that it's dangerous (I remember a case of particularly clever use of bidirectional signalling on the GEML which resulted in a stack of complaints).

I remember one person screenshotting a speedo app on their phone and copying in news outlets because they thought there was no way a train should be doing 83 mph in a residential area (and it was 2 mph under linespeed).

I have had numerous people tell me, quite confidently, that there are always signals at the ends of station platforms and never anywhere else. I remember at least one or two threads on this very forum asking whether or not signals only clear when the train is due to leave the platform.

Many people, if driving a car, would question why they were being held at a red traffic light for 2 or 3 minutes at a clear and empty junction at 3am (indeed I did that myself today, as did the adjacent bus driver). Anyone who would sit there for 10 minutes, with nothing whatsoever going on (unless you're in an area with red light cameras), would be deemed a bit silly by a lot of people. That debate is obviously best taken elsewhere.

And yet the railway has multitudes of reasons why skipping that red light is a really terribly catastrophically awful idea unless you have permission and you've agreed the specifics right down to the number of the signal. I can't remember the last time I reported a traffic light by its signal number.

So people who don't, won't or can't know about those multitudes of actually reasons will assume that, in fact, the train driver could probably do something about it, if indeed it's even true that they put signals between stations, because why would they? 'Cos everyone knows there's no reason a train could ever need to be stopped between stations anyway.

And then after 10 minutes they'll look at the nice gravel path down to a gate by a main road, and there's a big green emergency exit handle. "I once had to pull an emergency exit handle in Ikea", they say. "It said £50 penalty and danger of death", they say, "but it actually just ended up on the car park ramp".

"So surely the train track ain't any more dangerous..."

CRACKLE... "This is an emergency call..."

 

[PeterC]

I remember at least one or two threads on this very forum asking whether or not signals only clear when the train is due to leave the platform.

A perfectly reasonable assumption for a layman to make.

Also, as passengers don't have a view of the track ahead to see the red light they may easily assume that an extended stop means that their own train has broken down.

 

[AlterEgo]

It may be hard for many on this forum to believe, but I think (well, I know) a great deal of passengers believe that train drivers have a lot more leeway than they actually do. Most people have literally zero knowledge of the concepts of a Rule Book, operating irregularities, SPADs, "safety critical" duties, dispatch, and more - even many regular commuters who've spent decades ignoring anything which happens more than three inches away from their newspaper.

And why shouldn't they ignore stuff? They're passengers. Their focus is on whatever reason they need to get from A to B. They might want to sit down on the way. They probably want the train to be at the right temperature and have a toilet. They might want a drink and a chocolate bar. That's basically it. The signals could be pink with green spots on them, and the train could float sideways on a magic jelly cushion. (I never get a unit with a jelly cushion mod.)

I've seen many passengers ask the conductor why they're not at the front driving, because once they went on the DLR, and look, the same bloke/lady in a uniform can do all the stuff... and a bus driver sells tickets and stuff, so a train driver... same, huh?

Some people complain on Twitter that the train is overtaking another train and that it's dangerous (I remember a case of particularly clever use of bidirectional signalling on the GEML which resulted in a stack of complaints).

I remember one person screenshotting a speedo app on their phone and copying in news outlets because they thought there was no way a train should be doing 83 mph in a residential area (and it was 2 mph under linespeed).

I have had numerous people tell me, quite confidently, that there are always signals at the ends of station platforms and never anywhere else. I remember at least one or two threads on this very forum asking whether or not signals only clear when the train is due to leave the platform.

Many people, if driving a car, would question why they were being held at a red traffic light for 2 or 3 minutes at a clear and empty junction at 3am (indeed I did that myself today, as did the adjacent bus driver). Anyone who would sit there for 10 minutes, with nothing whatsoever going on (unless you're in an area with red light cameras), would be deemed a bit silly by a lot of people. That debate is obviously best taken elsewhere.

And yet the railway has multitudes of reasons why skipping that red light is a really terribly catastrophically awful idea unless you have permission and you've agreed the specifics right down to the number of the signal. I can't remember the last time I reported a traffic light by its signal number.

So people who don't, won't or can't know about those multitudes of actually reasons will assume that, in fact, the train driver could probably do something about it, if indeed it's even true that they put signals between stations, because why would they? 'Cos everyone knows there's no reason a train could ever need to be stopped between stations anyway.

And then after 10 minutes they'll look at the nice gravel path down to a gate by a main road, and there's a big green emergency exit handle. "I once had to pull an emergency exit handle in Ikea", they say. "It said £50 penalty and danger of death", they say, "but it actually just ended up on the car park ramp".

"So surely the train track ain't any more dangerous..."

CRACKLE... "This is an emergency call..."

On the other side of the coin, you have people who watch trains pass red signals and wet themselves.

Search Twitter for “cbm64novo londonmidland” for a good chuckle.

All the passengers need to know is that the train will be stopping regularly out of course away from stations because of the disruption. That’s sensible, because a stopped train is otherwise a stressful train. It’s already implicit that a driver can not pass a red signal in the message without it being explicitly stated.

The restrictions will vary between 20mph and 40mph depending on the perceived impact caused by the high track temperatures. This will cause all trains heading away from London Waterloo to lose up to 10 minutes before reaching New Malden station. Furthermore, as trains will take longer to pass through these sections, signals will be red for longer. Therefore, please do not be alarmed if your train stops whilst not at a station.

That’s all you need. It’s otherwise a very well written disruption message and an example to anyone else wanting to write one.

 

[ComUtoR]

[pedant]
Unless permitted in certain circumstances by the signaller (e.g. a track circuit failure or whatever)
[/pedant]

[pedant+]
Or on their own authority at a specific signal.
[/pedant+]

 

[Robsignals]

Temp

Believe me, there are quite a number of people out there, who think that's it's perfectly OK to drive through red traffic lights, level crossings & the lights protecting fire stations to name but three!

Temporary lights at road works are now radio connected (or not) and one end may stick on red while the other end works normally, I've been on a few buses where after waiting a while the driver has followed other traffic past the red having to squeeze past oncoming vehicles.

Some Platform starting signals only clear for a train but not ones with an 'Auto' plate.

 

[ComUtoR]

Some Platform starting signals only clear for a train but not ones with an 'Auto' plate.

After learning; on this forum and with personal experience. 'Auto' plates can almost be totally ignored as they too, can be 'controlled'

 

[shadowman]

Many people, if driving a car, would question why they were being held at a red traffic light for 2 or 3 minutes at a clear and empty junction at 3am (indeed I did that myself today, as did the adjacent bus driver). Anyone who would sit there for 10 minutes, with nothing whatsoever going on (unless you're in an area with red light cameras), would be deemed a bit silly by a lot of people. That debate is obviously best taken elsewhere.

I've had this happen to me when I was working at the local airport and I was riding my motorbike to work. The damn traffic lights I got stuck at had those light sensors on them to detect when a car pulled up and would automatically switch the lights to green (side road entering onto a dual lane urban carriageway) - because I was on a motorbike, it wouldn't/couldn't detect my headlamp and so I couldn't get the lights to switch. I ended up having to turn back up the road and ride towards the traffic lights a few times with the headlamp on full beam and it still didn't work. In total, I reckon I was stuck there for about 10 minutes, before deciding to sod it and go through the red light, only for a car to go past as I was pulling through the lights! Just my bloody luck!!

 

[jamesst]

Yes, they do. Some people are ****ing daft.

Hope this helps.

This!!!

 

[kilonewton]

I've had this happen to me when I was working at the local airport and I was riding my motorbike to work. The damn traffic lights I got stuck at had those light sensors on them to detect when a car pulled up and would automatically switch the lights to green (side road entering onto a dual lane urban carriageway) - because I was on a motorbike, it wouldn't/couldn't detect my headlamp and so I couldn't get the lights to switch. I ended up having to turn back up the road and ride towards the traffic lights a few times with the headlamp on full beam and it still didn't work. In total, I reckon I was stuck there for about 10 minutes, before deciding to sod it and go through the red light, only for a car to go past as I was pulling through the lights! Just my bloody luck!!

To stay off topic, my understanding is that flashing your lights is a myth. The detectors in this country are motion or infrared, so any vehicle in the road at any time of day should trigger them. Indeed, from personal experience, even pedestrians can trigger the lights to change if the road/pavement geometry means the pavement is with in the area for detection.
Other countries use induction loops embedded in the roadway to do the same thing. Not to say there are no installations of such systems here, I’ve just not seen any.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Indeed, temporary lights are motion sensored they detect movement up to them, and then that it stays there, if you were to drive off (say down a turning, or turn around) it knows, and so doesn't change.

Permanent lights usually have a sensor in the road instead (you'll see the black lines in the road) these are not triggered by pedestrians, or usually pushbikes, but motorbikes usually do. They can also respond to special sensors installed on buses, so it knows when a bus passes over, and gives the bus priority. We had some fitted on a pelican crossing near a difficult to pull out of junction. The bus approached the junction and triggered the pelican to change, so it could pull out. it did annoy car drivers as tehy were stuck at a crossing, that they could see no reason for changing!

 

[Robsignals]

After learning; on this forum and with personal experience. 'Auto' plates can almost be totally ignored as they too, can be 'controlled'

An average of 1 in 5 of a series of Autos have Emergency Replacement provision by the signaller. Platform starters and signals protecting tunnels, viaducts and auto level crossings are first choice. The plate gives drivers authority to pass a red after waiting x minutes without being able to contact the signaller. A signal is held at red If the signal ahead is unlit, an older standard allows single yellow if signal ahead has Controls "Off".

 

[ComUtoR]

The plate gives drivers authority to pass a red after waiting x minutes without being able to contact the signaller.

I'm having a brain fart and cannot place that rule or plate. Remind me again please.

Cheers in advance.

 

[IanXC]

I would expect this text was written by SWR staff rather than NRE staff.

 

[68015 (^AG)]

I would expect this text was written by SWR staff rather than NRE staff.

Yes, it certainly smacks of their 'plain english' simplified vocab used in delay reasons and explanations!

 

[Royston Vasey]

Believe me, there are quite a number of people out there, who think that's it's perfectly OK to drive through red traffic lights, level crossings & the lights protecting fire stations to name but three!

Yes, they're called cyclists

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Click on any TOC twitter account, view tweets & replies. Then tell me that normal people know anything about trains.

People complaining about train tickets being "oversold" because a service is busy.

People cramming onto a busy train then complaining that staff should stop people boarding because it is full.

People complaining that the 6pm off Kings Cross is busy.

People tweeting the wrong TOC and getting angry when they have to pass it on to the right one.

People tweeting issues with aircon/facilities/wifi at the customer desk rather than speaking to the train crew.

Etc....

 

[GB]

Not so long ago there were people on here moaning about the railways being too cryptic with delay reasons. Now, the railway makes it understandable to 99% of people and are accused of dumbing it down.....cant win really.

 

[Tomnick]

An average of 1 in 5 of a series of Autos have Emergency Replacement provision by the signaller. Platform starters and signals protecting tunnels, viaducts and auto level crossings are first choice. The plate gives drivers authority to pass a red after waiting x minutes without being able to contact the signaller. A signal is held at red If the signal ahead is unlit, an older standard allows single yellow if signal ahead has Controls "Off".

I'm having a brain fart and cannot place that rule or plate. Remind me again please.

Cheers in advance.

It's not there any more, that's why you can't find it! Even when it was in the Rule Book, it didn't specify a period of time to wait, just a requirement to be unable to contact the signalman.

 

[Robsignals]

It's not there any more, that's why you can't find it! Even when it was in the Rule Book, it didn't specify a period of time to wait, just a requirement to be unable to contact the signalman.

I remember 2 or 3 minutes being given as best practice, it was the reason for having the plate so are they provided on new installations?