Does Europe lag behind the UK regarding PRM TSI?

[Christmas]

Forgive me if this has been covered but I did check...

I have been looking at a few videos of railways in the EU and noticed that virtually nothing has changed regarding this legislation. There are still low platforms in Italy, steps up to coaches, double deck trains in France with no prospect of disabled passengers getting anywhere without a lot of assistance. Germany and Austria are running ancient stock that is unmodified.
So the question is have we in this country done a lot more than others in Europe?
Why was there a clamour to scrap Pacers and MK3s when European railways don't appear to have changed much at all?

 

[XAM2175]

So the question is have we in this country done a lot more than others in Europe?
Why was there a clamour to scrap Pacers and MK3s when European railways don't appear to have changed much at all?

The PRM TSI "boilerplate" only applies to new and substantially-modified stock, and this is the reading used by pretty much all other EU states. The Government here, by contrast, decided that the standards should apply to all public-service stock instead.

So yes, GB is ahead of all the continental railways in terms of overall PRM accessibility, but the continental railways aren't "behind" by their own domestic rules. Most of them also have plans in place for significant fleet replacements over the coming years anyway.

It's also worth noting the PRM TSI isn't just about passengers with physical disabilities, but also impaired vision and/or hearing. Many continental operators have made considerable progress with upgrades targeting those areas, but obviously they're the sort of thing that is hard to notice from outside the train.

 

[Chester1]

Forgive me if this has been covered but I did check...

I have been looking at a few videos of railways in the EU and noticed that virtually nothing has changed regarding this legislation. There are still low platforms in Italy, steps up to coaches, double deck trains in France with no prospect of disabled passengers getting anywhere without a lot of assistance. Germany and Austria are running ancient stock that is unmodified.
So the question is have we in this country done a lot more than others in Europe?
Why was there a clamour to scrap Pacers and MK3s when European railways don't appear to have changed much at all?

Its a classic example of a UK government hiding behind EU legislation that didn't obligate them to do what they were doing. It was a good policy to make all trains compliant and should have been argued for on its own merits.

 

[SynthD]

Is this the Person of restricted mobility’s experience with the Train station interface?

 

[Christmas]

Is this the Person of restricted mobility’s experience with the Train station interface?

I'm talking about the law. It has kindly been pointed out that UK jumped the gun slightly and committed themselves to more stringent regulations than continental Europe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would probably say that European railways are doing worse on long distance where high floor and stepped entrances are the norm, but far better on regional where low floor, level boarding is quickly taking over.

 

[Sm5]

Further east you go, the more behind it gets.

Rural Polish stations are sometimes little more than a bit of concrete by the side of the track, and nothings going to change that in the next few decades.



look no fences either… this station at least manages a street light of its own, though I dont know if it was working.
This is Rokiciny Podhalańskie, 250 miles from Warszaw, but actually has a direct service, at least back pre-covid.
Doesnt matter how compliant the stock is…

The locos used are descendants of EE ancestry, and date back to the 1960/70’s, the rolling stock is same age too.. and yet we bin mk4’s built nearly 20 years later and are on our next gen of Eurostar.. all operating under the same set of governmental rules.

 

[XAM2175]

and yet we bin mk4’s built nearly 20 years later and are on our next gen of Eurostar.. all operating under the same set of governmental rules.

The entire point is that they're not the same rules - and I think you'll find that the withdrawal and scrapping of most IC225 and e300 sets has a lot more to do with the operator's commercial decisions than it does PRM compliance.

 

[ExRes]

Its a classic example of a UK government hiding behind EU legislation that didn't obligate them to do what they were doing. It was a good policy to make all trains compliant and should have been argued for on its own merits.

So everyone is saying that the UK is far more advanced than Europe and you accuse the UK of "hiding behind EU legislation"? in your opinion should we be as far behind as Europe is then and show an equally couldn't care less attitude?

 

[danorak]

The reason we've been further ahead is that we already had the detailed Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations. These had a deadline for compliance of 2020 long before PRM TSI was thought about. Rowing back on that obligation was never likely to happen.

 

[Roast Veg]

The reason we've been further ahead is that we already had the detailed Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations. These had a deadline for compliance of 2020 long before PRM TSI was thought about. Rowing back on that obligation was never likely to happen.

Though notably RVAR was different from PRM TSI in many places, and some RVAR compliant stock had to be modified.

 

[James James]

Forgive me if this has been covered but I did check...

I have been looking at a few videos of railways in the EU and noticed that virtually nothing has changed regarding this legislation. There are still low platforms in Italy, steps up to coaches, double deck trains in France with no prospect of disabled passengers getting anywhere without a lot of assistance. Germany and Austria are running ancient stock that is unmodified.
So the question is have we in this country done a lot more than others in Europe?
Why was there a clamour to scrap Pacers and MK3s when European railways don't appear to have changed much at all?

Eh no, I think you may have confused your facts there. New double deck trains in France (and Switzerland, I think Austria, and sometimes in Italy) do offer completely level gap-free boarding - meanwhile most new trains in the UK still have a significant gap and step up. And of course it's even easier for single-deck trains (with the exception of High-speed where it's probably going to take longer). Of course that won't apply for platforms that haven't been upgraded to the standard height - but most countries are moving in that direction while the UK remains far away. The only place that is really a mess is Germany with the dual 55/76cm standard, although it looks like they're finally moving towards 76cm as standard for long-distance stock (with the issue that 76cm makes level boarding difficult for double-deck trains, see e.g. the Skoda double-deckers which have 76cm boarding and thereby lose upper-deck capacity). That said, Switzerland provided a solution for Germany's mix with the Giruno's that have both 55 and 76cm height entrances on 2 carriages.

Also bear in mind that countries that are using high-level stock with low-level platforms generally provide a wheelchair lift either on the platform (that's the Swiss model for the few remaining non-low-level trains, although soon to go away since all trains will have level boarding from I think 2023) or wheelchair lifts in trains (I think I remember seeing that in Poland and Czech republic?). Obviously a lift means depending on staff, but so does the UK model. And in most places, the high-level stock is on the way out.

 

[XAM2175]

So everyone is saying that the UK is far more advanced than Europe and you accuse the UK of "hiding behind EU legislation"? in your opinion should we be as far behind as Europe is then and show an equally couldn't care less attitude?

I believe they mean that the government should have had the guts to say "we're going above and beyond the EU requirements because we believe that this is an important matter" rather than "the mean bureaucrats in Brussels are making us do it".

 

[Watershed]

I believe they mean that the government should have had the guts to say "we're going above and beyond the EU requirements because we believe that this is an important matter" rather than "the mean bureaucrats in Brussels are making us do it".

Exactly - "EU regs, innit" was wheeled out as the excuse when, rather predictably, RVAR caused shortforming.

 

[Chester1]

I believe they mean that the government should have had the guts to say "we're going above and beyond the EU requirements because we believe that this is an important matter" rather than "the mean bureaucrats in Brussels are making us do it".

Exactly - "EU regs, innit" was wheeled out as the excuse when, rather predictably, RVAR caused shortforming.

Thats exactly what I meant. Its a good policy and they should have owned it and justified the temporary disruption it caused.

 

[NoRoute]

Further east you go, the more behind it gets.

Rural Polish stations are sometimes little more than a bit of concrete by the side of the track, and nothings going to change that in the next few decades.

look no fences either… this station at least manages a street light of its own, though I dont know if it was working.
This is Rokiciny Podhalańskie, 250 miles from Warszaw, but actually has a direct service, at least back pre-covid.
Doesnt matter how compliant the stock is…

I'd say the opposite, that's a village with a population of 1,450 people with a railway station, an electrified railway line and as you say, routine passenger services.

If that was the UK there wouldn't be a station at all because the costs of the railway's gold-plated standards would make it uneconomic to build, maintain and operate for a village of that size. In the UK we haven't been able to electrify our major intercity mainlines, so no hope of electrifying a minor line like that. Add on the UK requirements for fencing, segregation, barriers, probably the removal of numerous level crossing and in the UK we'd have closed the line.

The UK photo would just be a road and a disused trackbed.

 

[DerekC]

The UK photo would just be a road and a disused trackbed.

or more probably a dual carriageway taking in the old railway alignment

 

[seagull]

A subject that has cropped up in conversations recently a few times:

Do the gold-plated safety and accessibility standards on UK railways have the effect of reducing overall availability (and ironically, accessibility) and increasing the cost? And is there a danger of the longer term unintended effect to be that usage declines?

(and please don't take the above to imply that I am not in favour of accessibility or safety measures, far from it, but it's nevertheless an intriguing debate to have)

 

[James James]

And to expand on what I was saying:

• Here is one of SNCF's newer Omneo's - perhaps that's the famed unfriendly double-deck being complained about - you'll see at one station they had to use a ramp (presumably that one hasn't been upgraded yet), but later on they can use the gap-filler: https://maligne-ter.com/tours-orlea...es-rames-et-un-nouveau-centre-de-maintenance/
• Yes there will be a step up for some older SNCF trains, e.g. the single-deck TGV: https://www.handicap.fr/static/contenu/img3/sncf-largeur-fauteuil-train-12110.jpg (That's presumably easier to manage since fewer stations get TGV's.) Those will presumably disappear eventually.
• Italy: just one example https://twitter.com/abbibrown92/status/1185291937097699328 , and the new Hitachi Rocks (both single and double-deck) have level boarding: https://www.railjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Trenitalia-rock-launch.jpg
• Austria has level boarding for local trains, e.g. https://image-service.web.oebb.at/w...jpg/jcr:content.jpg?t=1530712369661&scale=1.0 - some long distance trains are indeed high-level but the new ones have built in lifts: https://www.oepb.at/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Bild-1_OEBB_Barrierefreiheit2_c_OEBB_Deopito.jpg - and I believe the newer Nightjets will have a low-floor area with level boarding.
• Germany: plenty of level boarding https://signalarchiv.de/Meldungen/pics/201802_hoehe_05.jpg - although it's slightly chaotic with 2 differnet heights, and there's no plan for how to make ICE's level boarding yet (but the new ones will have lifts, and the ECX will be level: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1iny1ZX0AAOK-e.jpg:large )
• Switzerland is not EU but probably has the best story - high-level trains are already largely gone, and will disappear by 2024, platforms are mostly upgraded by now.

By now it should be fairly clear that a large part of Europe is far ahead of the UK when it comes to level boarding (still plenty of work to do though, primarily around platforms).

 

[Austriantrain]

Forgive me if this has been covered but I did check...

I have been looking at a few videos of railways in the EU and noticed that virtually nothing has changed regarding this legislation. There are still low platforms in Italy, steps up to coaches, double deck trains in France with no prospect of disabled passengers getting anywhere without a lot of assistance. Germany and Austria are running ancient stock that is unmodified.
So the question is have we in this country done a lot more than others in Europe?
Why was there a clamour to scrap Pacers and MK3s when European railways don't appear to have changed much at all?

I can only reply for Austria. We have a long-standing programme to increase every platform to 55 cm height. That also includes step-free access to the platform and thus to any low-floor train. Obviously, it costs a lot of money and needs building resources, so it can’t happen overnight (especially as we don’t do Harrington Humps either).

All new stock for commuter and regional services is low-floor and while there is still some old stock around, it is not a lot (except on some diesel lines) - of course, it would be even less if ÖBB managed to do an honest public procurement (the last one for double-deck stock got thrown out in court) or if Alstom (Bombardier) had more luck with Talent3.

As to long-distance, the RJ2 and new NJ cars will be partially low-floor. The original RJ have an integrated lift. Older stock doesn’t have these features, but there is not that much around any more.

 

[yorksrob]

Thats exactly what I meant. Its a good policy and they should have owned it and justified the temporary disruption it caused.

That's fine, so long as you're not the passengers left without a seat.

 

[Chester1]

And to expand on what I was saying:

• Here is one of SNCF's newer Omneo's - perhaps that's the famed unfriendly double-deck being complained about - you'll see at one station they had to use a ramp (presumably that one hasn't been upgraded yet), but later on they can use the gap-filler: https://maligne-ter.com/tours-orlea...es-rames-et-un-nouveau-centre-de-maintenance/
• Yes there will be a step up for some older SNCF trains, e.g. the single-deck TGV: https://www.handicap.fr/static/contenu/img3/sncf-largeur-fauteuil-train-12110.jpg (That's presumably easier to manage since fewer stations get TGV's.) Those will presumably disappear eventually.
• Italy: just one example https://twitter.com/abbibrown92/status/1185291937097699328 , and the new Hitachi Rocks (both single and double-deck) have level boarding: https://www.railjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Trenitalia-rock-launch.jpg
• Austria has level boarding for local trains, e.g. https://image-service.web.oebb.at/w...jpg/jcr:content.jpg?t=1530712369661&scale=1.0 - some long distance trains are indeed high-level but the new ones have built in lifts: https://www.oepb.at/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Bild-1_OEBB_Barrierefreiheit2_c_OEBB_Deopito.jpg - and I believe the newer Nightjets will have a low-floor area with level boarding.
• Germany: plenty of level boarding https://signalarchiv.de/Meldungen/pics/201802_hoehe_05.jpg - although it's slightly chaotic with 2 differnet heights, and there's no plan for how to make ICE's level boarding yet (but the new ones will have lifts, and the ECX will be level: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1iny1ZX0AAOK-e.jpg:large )
• Switzerland is not EU but probably has the best story - high-level trains are already largely gone, and will disappear by 2024, platforms are mostly upgraded by now.

By now it should be fairly clear that a large part of Europe is far ahead of the UK when it comes to level boarding (still plenty of work to do though, primarily around platforms).

The standard UK platform height of 0.9m is not suited to level boarding. 0.5m or 1.1m is much easier. We have a significant minority of platforms that are curved, which makes things much more difficult. There is more to PRM-TSI than wheelchair access. Every country needs to take their own approach to disabled access. The UK understandable focused on the aspects that were easiest to resolve e.g. seating and information systems. Now the trains are almost all compliant we can chip away at the more difficult problems.

 

[Bikeman78]

It's also worth noting the PRM TSI isn't just about passengers with physical disabilities, but also impaired vision and/or hearing. Many continental operators have made considerable progress with upgrades targeting those areas, but obviously they're the sort of thing that is hard to notice from outside the train.

That varies massively from country to country. Do any Belgian trains have a door release sound? I'm pretty sure that none have automatic announcements but then I haven't been there for two years. I think the modern Dutch Sprinters have door release noise but it's nothing like as loud as most UK trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2021 ==

Further east you go, the more behind it gets.

Rural Polish stations are sometimes little more than a bit of concrete by the side of the track, and nothings going to change that in the next few decades.

look no fences either… this station at least manages a street light of its own, though I dont know if it was working.
This is Rokiciny Podhalańskie, 250 miles from Warszaw, but actually has a direct service, at least back pre-covid.
Doesnt matter how compliant the stock is…

This looks very similar to most small stations in Belgium. Low platform and a fixed post with a timetable on. No real time info provided at all. Not that it mattered because the train usually appeared within five minutes of schedule. To be fair, the Belgians are slowly raising the platforms. For example I think all stations on line 50 from Brussel to Denderleeuw have been done.

 

[Halish Railway]

I think the modern Dutch Sprinters have door release noise but it's nothing like as loud as most UK trains.

I’m pretty sure that the SLTs don’t have a door release sound and they are only 14 years old at most, although all seem to have level boarding.

The Stadler Flirts & CAF Civities they have do have door release sounds.

VIRMs are continuing to have the horrid retrofitted alarms that are common here fitted.

 

[Bikeman78]

I’m pretty sure that the SLTs don’t have a door release sound and they are only 14 years old at most, although all seem to have level boarding.

The Stadler Flirts & CAF Civities they have do have door release sounds.

VIRMs are continuing to have the horrid retrofitted alarms that are common here fitted.

I didn't know that about the VIRMs. Is that for door release, door closing, or both? How depressing. I used to like the VIRM. They are excellent trains.

 

[James James]

That varies massively from country to country. Do any Belgian trains have a door release sound? I'm pretty sure that none have automatic announcements but then I haven't been there for two years. I think the modern Dutch Sprinters have door release noise but it's nothing like as loud as most UK trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2021 ==

Can't speak to Belgium specifically, but every new train I've seen elsewhere in Europe* has horrible door noises and excessively bright lighting. I think it depends on the precise year of approval though, some reasonably modern trains indeed don't have the horrible door noises yet.

* Even in Switzerland.

 

[Bikeman78]

Can't speak to Belgium specifically, but every new train I've seen elsewhere in Europe* has horrible door noises and excessively bright lighting. I think it depends on the precise year of approval though, some reasonably modern trains indeed don't have the horrible door noises yet.

* Even in Switzerland.

Fair enough. Clearly NS and NMBS/SNCB are behind the curve. Why do the door chimes need to be so loud? Who are they aimed at? Can any disabled forum members comment on whether they find them useful?

 

[Halish Railway]

I didn't know that about the VIRMs. Is that for door release, door closing, or both? How depressing. I used to like the VIRM. They are excellent trains.

It’s both unfortunately, although the lovely wooden finish in the vestibule on the refurbished units more than compensates.

 

[biko]

As mentioned, the newest NS Sprinters have the door release and closing sounds (SNG and FLIRT), not sure about SLT as I have only used one once. Intercity stock only has closing sounds, which are quite different. Some beep, others have one a continuous sound.

It’s both unfortunately, although the lovely wooden finish in the vestibule on the refurbished units more than compensates.

Are you sure? The VIRMs I used during the last year only had a beeping sound when the doors were closing.

Why do the door chimes need to be so loud? Who are they aimed at? Can any disabled forum members comment on whether they find them useful?

Good question, especially as there are enormous differences between the trains I've used. Some are very loud, others more subtle, so apparently not everybody agrees or the rules have changed.

 

[seagull]

Some NS trains have or had a doors-about-to-close sound very similar to the distinctive guard's whistle sound (of which I own one). Can't remember which type though, possibly the Koplopers.