Does English or Scottish law apply on trains crossing the border?

[OLJR]

If I get on a train at Newcastle and proceed non-stop to Edinburgh at what point do I have to stop obeying English law and start obeying Scottish law? Is it:

(i) When I board the train
(ii) When the doors close
(iii) When the train leaves the platform
(iv) When the train crosses the border
(v) When the train arrives at the platform
(vi) When the doors open
(vii) When I get off the train
(viii) Something else?

Does it depend on whether either the TOC or the ROSCO is registered in England or Scotland?

Just curious!

 

[Bletchleyite]

(iv) When the train crosses the border

I expect that one.

 

[Mag_seven]

I would guess (iv) When the train crosses the border.

I've often wondered that about plane journeys.

 

[bb21]

AIUI on cross-border services, English law applies throughout. Scottish law only applicable to services entirely within Scotland.

I think this one popped up a while ago on the forum, although don't shoot me if I were wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

AIUI on cross-border services, English law applies throughout. Scottish law only applicable to services entirely within Scotland.

I think this one popped up a while ago on the forum, although don't shoot me if I were wrong.

ISTR when Scotland brought in the smoking ban, "international" trains did not have to instruct passengers to extinguish their cigarettes as they crossed, might be wrong though.

 

[bb21]

I must remember to bring my passport next time I get on the sleeper.

 

[Mag_seven]

AIUI on cross-border services, English law applies throughout. Scottish law only applicable to services entirely within Scotland

For god's sake don't tell Queen Nicola that!

 

[dubscottie]

Most of the offences are common law so the the only real difference between England and Scotland is how police/courts deal with the offence and the Act that the person is charged under.

The outcome would still be the same.

 

[pdeaves]

I expect the relevant operators declare somewhere that, in the event of dispute, English/Scottish* law will apply (*delete as appropriate).

Edit
Caledonian sleepers says this in its terms & conditions (https://www.sleeper.scot/termsandconditions):

7.9. These Terms and Conditions shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of Scotland and you agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Scottish courts, unless otherwise prescribed by the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

VTEC, on the other hand, states (https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/terms-conditions):

20. These terms and conditions are governed by and construed and performed in accordance with the laws of England and Wales, whose courts shall be the courts of exclusive jurisdiction.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

AIUI on cross-border services, English law applies throughout. Scottish law only applicable to services entirely within Scotland.

I think this one popped up a while ago on the forum, although don't shoot me if I were wrong.

The DfT controls all daytime cross-border franchise services (ie VTWC, VTEC, XC, TPE), while the SG/TS controls Scotrail trains, and Caledonian Sleepers.
That might have some bearing on the answer.
That still leaves freight, open access and other non-franchise traffic.
Also perhaps the hybrid Scotrail/Northern service between Glasgow and Newcastle (north of Carlisle, where it is a Scotrail service).

 

[TheEdge]

I would guess (iv) When the train crosses the border.

I've often wondered that about plane journeys.

I believe plane journeys obey the law of the departing country until the door is closed, then the laws of the country of registration of the aircraft, then on arrival of the arriving country.

Although it can vary

 

[cf111]

Scots criminal jurisdiction at its most basic is concerned with the locus of the alleged offence, i.e. the accused should be tried in the Sheriff Court of the district in which it is supposed to have happened. Civil jurisdiction is more nuanced and will probably be governed by the terms of the contract you enter with the TOC.

Section 9(3) of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 actually deals with offences on the railway:

Where an offence is committed against any person or in respect of any property in or on any carriage, cart or vehicle employed in a journey by road or railway, or on board any vessel employed in a river, loch, canal or inland navigation, the offence may be tried by any court through whose jurisdiction the carriage, cart, vehicle or vessel passed in the course of the journey or voyage during which the offence was committed.

So for example if a passenger on board a Glasgow bound train from Euston assaulted another as the train passed through Lockerbie, they could conceivably appear from custody and thereafter be tried at Dumfries, Hamilton or Glasgow Sheriff Courts, or of course the High Court if the assault was particularly bad.

I would be surprised if they would be taken back to England if the offence took place in Scotland although I may be wrong!

 

[dubscottie]

My understanding is that say a person stole from a passenger as a train passed through Berwick (without stopping) and thief was arrested on arrival in Edinburgh, the thief would be taken back to Northumbria to be charged and put before the courts as that's where the offence occurred.

 

[Chris M]

I know that English law applies to the conditions of carriage and the contract associated with the ticket, except for journeys wholly within Scotland.
For offences committed on the train, I guess the change comes when the border is crossed. When I gave a witness statement when a guard was assaulted on the train I was on the BTP officers were very pleased when I was able to give them an exact location where the train stopped (we were adjacent to a signal on the opposite line). This was between Bristol and Nailsea and Backwell so there was no question of jurisdiction, but their reaction makes me think that knowing the location is important or at least useful.

I wrote more about this incident in this thread if anyone is interested.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I believe plane journeys obey the law of the departing country until the door is closed, then the laws of the country of registration of the aircraft, then on arrival of the arriving country.

Although it can vary

A quick websearch turned up a discussion from 2005 on an aviation forum which essentially came to the same conclusion. The variations, though interesting, are highly unlikely to have any relevance to international train journeys. Are there any such journeys which cross a "third" country without any booked stops, whether public or operational? I mean more substantial than passing through Liechtenstein or Monaco!

 

[TheEdge]

A quick websearch turned up a discussion from 2005 on an aviation forum which essentially came to the same conclusion. The variations, though interesting, are highly unlikely to have any relevance to international train journeys. Are there any such journeys which cross a "third" country without any booked stops, whether public or operational? I mean more substantial than passing through Liechtenstein or Monaco!

Are there any Brussels Eurostar services that pass through France without stopping? Or do they all call at Lille or Calais or both?

 

[eddp]

A quick websearch turned up a discussion from 2005 on an aviation forum which essentially came to the same conclusion. The variations, though interesting, are highly unlikely to have any relevance to international train journeys. Are there any such journeys which cross a "third" country without any booked stops, whether public or operational? I mean more substantial than passing through Liechtenstein or Monaco!

I took the Thello sleeper from Paris to Venice a few years ago which went through Switzerland (Vallorbe to Brig, from memory) without any scheduled passenger stops - however I assume that the loco is probably switched at some point so there are probably operational stops, although I can't confirm. The train had customs posters from Swiss customs even though the train is ostensibly an internal EU service, although (again from memory) there were no customs checks when entering or leaving Switzerland.

https://www.thello.com/Paris-Venise/Horaires/index.html

 

[AM9]

... So for example if a passenger on board a Glasgow bound train from Euston assaulted another as the train passed through Lockerbie, they could conceivably appear from custody and thereafter be tried at Dumfries, Hamilton or Glasgow Sheriff Courts, or of course the High Court if the assault was particularly bad.

I would be surprised if they would be taken back to England if the offence took place in Scotland although I may be wrong!

If the train didn't stop until Carlisle or even Lancaster, the local police would apprehend the suspect. If it became known that the crime took place whilst travelling over Scottish territory, maybe the Scots court would need to apply for extradition.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A quick websearch turned up a discussion from 2005 on an aviation forum which essentially came to the same conclusion. The variations, though interesting, are highly unlikely to have any relevance to international train journeys. Are there any such journeys which cross a "third" country without any booked stops, whether public or operational? I mean more substantial than passing through Liechtenstein or Monaco!

Salzburg to Innsbruck services pass through Germany without stopping. There are a few such services, the concept is known as "cabotage" and existed well before Schengen (posing a bit of a border gap, I guess).

 

[mallard]

Salzburg to Innsbruck services pass through Germany without stopping. There are a few such services, the concept is known as "cabotage" and existed well before Schengen (posing a bit of a border gap, I guess).

That'll be the "Deutsches_Eck". Non-stop Austrian trains have used the route since 1982 (prior to that a reversal at Rosenheim was necessary). As I understand it (and I've travelled along that route on a RailJet from Vienna to Zurich), Austrian law applies throughout on non-stop services.

 

[TheNewNo2]

I think we're all missing the point here.

OLJR, what crime are you planning on committing aboard a cross-border train? I have shades of that Sideshow Bob 5 state crime solution from The Simpsons.

 

[Busaholic]

Let's not forget Pan Am and Lockerbie. The investigation had to be handled by the local police in Scotland, just as if it had happened over Alnwick, say, the Northumbria police would have been the lead force. It would not be an unkind observation to say that progress in the investigation was not helped by such parochialism.

 

[Altnabreac]

Let's not forget Pan Am and Lockerbie. The investigation had to be handled by the local police in Scotland, just as if it had happened over Alnwick, say, the Northumbria police would have been the lead force. It would not be an unkind observation to say that progress in the investigation was not helped by such parochialism.

Though we did get plenty of Pan Am debris in Northumberland, especially from the mailbags.

 

[Ianigsy]

The question of jurisdiction came up after the Quintinshill disaster in 1915. Although the majority of the victims were killed at the site, a small number died in hospitals in Carlisle, so inquests were opened under the English procedure and then adjourned when it became apparent that it was much more sensible for all the victims to be dealt with under the same process.

 

[sjoh]

This reminds me of my Customs and Excise VAT training. The ins and outs of VAT liability on cross border trains... It was fairly mind numbing to say the least.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Salzburg to Innsbruck services pass through Germany without stopping. There are a few such services, the concept is known as "cabotage" and existed well before Schengen (posing a bit of a border gap, I guess).

That'll be the "Deutsches_Eck". Non-stop Austrian trains have used the route since 1982 (prior to that a reversal at Rosenheim was necessary). As I understand it (and I've travelled along that route on a RailJet from Vienna to Zurich), Austrian law applies throughout on non-stop services.

Oops! I had completely forgotten about the Austrian Korridorzuege. They also had a corridor operation through Italy between Brennero/Brenner and San Candido/Innichen though I believe the operations have changed since Schengen rules came into being.

 

[Scotrail84]

ISTR when Scotland brought in the smoking ban, "international" trains did not have to instruct passengers to extinguish their cigarettes as they crossed, might be wrong though.

No but GNER banned smoking around the 25th august 2005.

 

[jamesontheroad]

This conversation reminds me of this video on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/lkCeKc1GTMs

What country are international airports in? And what would happen to a Chinese citizen who commits a crime between flights (within immigration control) at Amsterdam Schiphol airport?