Does Cornwall / Devon need more express services?

[Schweir]

Do Cornwall and Devon need more faster non-stop services from London? i.e London, Reading, Exeter, Plymouth and select stops onto Penzance?

This would also help in the summer when tourism peaks, when services can get very busy.

Surely one or two more "express" services would make more people do the trip by train, rather than clogging up the overstretched A303.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Most of them pretty much are express to Exeter already, to be fair. I don't think removing Newton Abbott (for Paignton and Torquay) would be a good idea. And once you're into Cornwall the HSTs generally only stop at the bigger settlements anyway.

 

[Essexman]

The summer Newquay train doesn't stop much.
Don't leave out Newton Abbott though as a good service is need for Torbay.

 

[irish_rail]

I think hourly expresses are about right just make sure they have a decent number of carriages.

 

[irish_rail]

It is the poor and overpriced XC services which could so with improving , something better than 4 car voyagers and more destinations perhaps to include the north west .

 

[diffident]

It is the poor and overpriced XC services which could so with improving , something better than 4 car voyagers and more destinations perhaps to include the north west .

This I agree with. Back in the 80's & 90's, Intercity services were HST's and even those leaving Birmingham New Street bound for Penzance were well loaded in the summer months.

Quite why when the Voyagers were ordered, that only 4 and 5 car variants materialised is something of an enigma to me. I understand the thinking that Virgin CrossCountry at the time were aiming for increased frequency with shorter trains, but logically it didn't make sense.

What should have happened in the mid-2000's when the issue was well known, is that the DfT should have authorised the ordering of more carriages to bring the 220's and 221's upto seven cars in length like their sister class 222's.

Why this still couldn't be done, other than cost, I don't know, but it would certainly be a welcome move if something of the like was to happen. Similarly, I would have thought - and at risk of setting off a raucous debate - instead of GWR sending their HST's up to Scotland, they should go to XC, and the voyagers be cascaded for the services that ScotRail propose.

Last year I travelled down to Cornwall on my holidays, and a full and standing voyager from Birmingham to Plymouth was a very uncomfortable journey - having a seat reservation made absolutely no difference, because it wasn't possible to get past all of the people and luggage to even reach the seats.

Changing at Plymouth and onto a similarly packed GWR HST from Pad to Penzance just goes to show how there isn't the capacity currently on the Devon and Cornwall services, in the summer months anyway.

 

[Ianno87]

Most of them pretty much are express to Exeter already, to be fair. I don't think removing Newton Abbott (for Paignton and Torquay) would be a good idea. And once you're into Cornwall the HSTs generally only stop at the bigger settlements anyway.

Agree - Reading non-stop to Taunton pretty much every hour already compares well with other main lines (Euston to Warrington, King's Cross to York).

Having a regular (every hour or two) semi-fast for Exeter/Torbay may help spread loads a bit better, and maybe shift a Tiverton call (and other odd intermediate calls) out of the Plymouth/Penzance.

 

[cle]

Perhaps the semi-fasts to Exeter should be hourly and continue to Paignton - and mop up a few calls that way. They could occasionally switch with Plymouth services, which might be slower in some hours - for balance.

Clearly Taunton and onwards needs 2tph from Paddington. There are a lot of purposes - Cornwall holidays, Devon holidays, Exeter and Plymouth city demand (business, unis etc) and the railheads along the route like Westbury, Taunton, Tiverton and smaller like Castle Cary/Pewsey. Eventually I think 3tph could be justifiable in some shape or form (e.g. an hourly Westbury terminator).

 

[221129]

Having a regular (every hour or two) semi-fast for Exeter/Torbay may help spread loads a bit better, and maybe shift a Tiverton call (and other odd intermediate calls) out of the Plymouth/Penzance.

I disagree with removing more Tiverton calls. I would argue that more calls should be put in rather than removing others.

 

[JamesRowden]

I think hourly expresses are about right just make sure they have a decent number of carriages.

An hourly 8 Carriage HST led to people having to stand between Reading and Taunton on a Sunday evening last Oct/Nov. I was lucky enough to have a seat on the 16:57 from Paddington unlike the countless number (of what appeared to be University students) sitting on their luggage in the aisle. I've made sure that I travel before that (and reserve a seat) since. Definitely enough demand for a 2tph intercity service with a 9-car 802 express and a 5/9 car 802 which calls at a few of the more significant stations between Reading and Taunton.

 

[CC 72100]

I disagree with removing more Tiverton calls. I would argue that more calls should be put in rather than removing others.

Just out of interest - why?

Whilst Tiverton does serve a wide area, it doesn't provide the bulk of the passenger flows on those services; Taunton I would imagine provides more. If you're running fast Reading - Exeter (ie. no Taunton) then I can't think of a justifiable reason to call additionally at Tiverton too.

 

[hexagon789]

Do Cornwall and Devon need more faster non-stop services from London? i.e London, Reading, Exeter, Plymouth and select stops onto Penzance?

This would also help in the summer when tourism peaks, when services can get very busy.

Surely one or two more "express" services would make more people do the trip by train, rather than clogging up the overstretched A303.

I would say that you would need that in combination with linespeed increases, there's nothing over 75 past Plymouth so even an HST missing out most stops doesn't make up much time compared to a stopping Sprinter.

 

[HowardGWR]

Don't forget the ruinously expensive summer services that demanded trains sitting in sidings for most of the year. That's why BR got out of the holiday market. The A303 junctions and its future replacement (A358 M5 junction) will always be jammed on the 6 summer saturdays when the children are on holiday, just as they always have been since the 50s. Wherever the junction is put where northern originating traffic has to merge with the London /SE traffic, that's where there there will be jams. It used to be the Exeter bypass and Ilchester before that and Honiton as well.

The advantage of the summer weekend car traffic is that the owners pay for their own vehicles and use them the rest of the year as well, at home.

 

[Master29]

I certainly think we should be losing some Tiverton Parkway calls for sure. It`s already been mentioned that Taunton serves a similar area so why does Tiverton Parkway need more calls, and not forgetting XC always call there. On top of that Cullompton may be getting a station, although not sure if express trains will stop there. I hope not.

From March onwards me Cornwall should have a few more I think. Perhaps some IEP splitting at Plymouth, which seems to be on the cards anyway.
Also, worth adding there is no direct Reading Taunton via the Hants-Berks line prior to the Cornish Riviera leaving Paddington at just after 10am.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is this question about possible extras compared to now, or once the upcoming planned changes to Devon & Cornwall mainline services have already been made?

 

[jimm]

Is this question about possible extras compared to now, or once the upcoming planned changes to Devon & Cornwall mainline services have already been made?

A question I would echo.

The new service pattern from next January has been known about for something like three years already.

• Standard pattern hourly service from London running non-stop between Reading and Taunton, extending hourly to Plymouth and 2 hourly to Penzance
• A two-hourly stopping service between Paddington and Exeter to provide connectivity to the intermediate stations. Paignton will be served by 3 intercity services each way (Mondays-Fridays)

Plus, of course, the usual summer extras.

 

[D1009]

Also, worth adding there is no direct Reading Taunton via the Hants-Berks line prior to the Cornish Riviera leaving Paddington at just after 10am.

Incorrect, since last December the 0633 PAD has been nonstop Reading Taunton at the behest of local politicians, though I'm told it conveys mostly fresh air.

 

[Busaholic]

Quadruple lines from Saltash and you could run express services into Cornwall! Actually, restoring station staff to the platforms could cut 5 to 10 minutes in practice, especially in the evenings in the down direction through Cornwall. The doors that don't get closed by departing passengers are a real pain if you're travelling the full route and just want to get home.

 

[jimm]

But won't be a pain for very much longer anyway once the 802s take over London services and the full fleet of power-door mini-HSTs is operating.

 

[Master29]

Incorrect, since last December the 0633 PAD has been nonstop Reading Taunton at the behest of local politicians, though I'm told it conveys mostly fresh air.

Absolutely. My mistake. It`s usually expensive perhaps a good reason why it`s empty.

 

[Master29]

Quadruple lines from Saltash and you could run express services into Cornwall! Actually, restoring station staff to the platforms could cut 5 to 10 minutes in practice, especially in the evenings in the down direction through Cornwall. The doors that don't get closed by departing passengers are a real pain if you're travelling the full route and just want to get home.

You`re forgetting electrification through to Penzance as well as the branch lines.

 

[nw1]

Don't forget the ruinously expensive summer services that demanded trains sitting in sidings for most of the year. That's why BR got out of the holiday market. The A303 junctions and its future replacement (A358 M5 junction) will always be jammed on the 6 summer saturdays when the children are on holiday, just as they always have been since the 50s. Wherever the junction is put where northern originating traffic has to merge with the London /SE traffic, that's where there there will be jams. It used to be the Exeter bypass and Ilchester before that and Honiton as well.

The advantage of the summer weekend car traffic is that the owners pay for their own vehicles and use them the rest of the year as well, at home.

Weren't most of those Summer Saturday services using hauled stock (old MkIs, typically) that was used on peak-only Mon-Fri services out of Paddington and thus was actually used the whole year? This would make the Summer Saturday services a very efficient use of the stock- rather than hanging around sidings at the weekend they can be deployed on holiday specials during the summer months.

I remember those Summer Saturday services well, they started at the May timetable change and they used to persist well into the autumn: remember a procession of them calling at Reading on the last Saturday in September 1984 (and depending on the calendar, they sometimes ran up to and including the first Saturday in October), mostly 50 or 47 hauled with MkI stock.

 

[Mintona]

A question I would echo.

The new service pattern from next January has been known about for something like three years already.

• Standard pattern hourly service from London running non-stop between Reading and Taunton, extending hourly to Plymouth and 2 hourly to Penzance
• A two-hourly stopping service between Paddington and Exeter to provide connectivity to the intermediate stations. Paignton will be served by 3 intercity services each way (Mondays-Fridays)

Plus, of course, the usual summer extras.

I wish that stopping service was hourly. Newbury and Westbury at least probably justify an hourly fast train. I guess demand can be better established once the timetable is up and running properly.

 

[Master29]

Weren't most of those Summer Saturday services using hauled stock (old MkIs, typically) that was used on peak-only Mon-Fri services out of Paddington and thus was actually used the whole year? This would make the Summer Saturday services a very efficient use of the stock- rather than hanging around sidings at the weekend they can be deployed on holiday specials during the summer months.

I remember those Summer Saturday services well, they started at the May timetable change and they used to persist well into the autumn: remember a procession of them calling at Reading on the last Saturday in September 1984 (and depending on the calendar, they sometimes ran up to and including the first Saturday in October), mostly 50 or 47 hauled with MkI stock.

I always hated mark 1 stock on holiday trains. Much preferred the family at a mark 2 table. On those corridor mk 1`s you never got a window seat.

 

[MarkyT]

I'd stop all the fast Plymouth/Penzance fast London trains in the new timetable at Westbury for the myriad rail connections available there and for its growth potential as a mid-Wiltshire parkway. I don't understand the suggestions to cut out stops such as Tiverton Parkway, Newton Abbot and Totnes. While they will never provide the passenger numbers of Plymouth and Exeter these all serve important areas with sizable, well heeled populations that help to fill London trains and provide a capacious and comfortable regional express service between such towns and the local cities. The issues are similar to those discussed the recent Crosscountry thread. Modern high performance trains can make more calls than steam or early diesel age services because they have the acceleration to do so. I'm not suggesting calling at every lamp-post, but a number of well spaced important stops en route makes the overall service much more useful for more potential passengers along a particular corridor.

 

[HowardGWR]

^^^That's true and the ever expanding car parks at Tiverton tell the story. I do believe that the situation may change when (and if) Cullompton and Wellington re-open.

 

[HowardGWR]

Weren't most of those Summer Saturday services using hauled stock (old MkIs, typically) that was used on peak-only Mon-Fri services out of Paddington and thus was actually used the whole year? This would make the Summer Saturday services a very efficient use of the stock- rather than hanging around sidings at the weekend they can be deployed on holiday specials during the summer months.

I remember those Summer Saturday services well, they started at the May timetable change and they used to persist well into the autumn: remember a procession of them calling at Reading on the last Saturday in September 1984 (and depending on the caleTo some extent, but in any case the car was taking overndar, they sometimes ran up to and including the first Saturday in October), mostly 50 or 47 hauled with MkI stock.

To some limited extent, but the car was taking over and I think the TOC would be very unwise to try and reverse the situation - much. I recommend the two books about the GWR published by David and Charles at the GWR 150 celebrations, for an excellent analysis on the waste of resources of the holiday traffic. It should also be remembered how much extra infrastructure in the form of loops and sidings was needed too, just for those two months.

 

[bramling]

Quadruple lines from Saltash and you could run express services into Cornwall! Actually, restoring station staff to the platforms could cut 5 to 10 minutes in practice, especially in the evenings in the down direction through Cornwall. The doors that don't get closed by departing passengers are a real pain if you're travelling the full route and just want to get home.

It's amazing how many HST doors get left open nowadays. Do people expect someone to open and close their front-door for them, or do they just not think at all? The arrogance and lack of self-awareness is breathtaking.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Need more of the same, not the same but less stops

 

[Starmill]

Do people expect someone to open and close their front-door for them, or do they just not think at all? The arrogance and lack of self-awareness is breathtaking.

Is it not obvious? They assume that, like almost all trains you could use in this country, the doors will close automatically.

Just because a slam door is something an enthusiast notices, why on earth might the average customer? The only exception is the first person off the train. By definition they are usually not the last.