Does Britain Really Need Two Loop Test Tracks?

[Envoy]

I see that Porterbrook are planning to build a loop test track at Long Marston:> https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/long-marston

"We're building the UK's only continuous testing loop, due to commence operations in early 2026.

With first-of-a-kind power conversion technology for discontinuous electrification, the 3.5km loop will support the delivery of the next generation of electric and multi-mode fleets to the UK railway."

I am also aware of plans to build a similar test track at Onllwyn (pronounced oncline) about 1000ft up in the hills north of Neath on an old open cast coal mine:> https://www.gcre.wales/

"As a site for world class rail innovation GCRE will bring people and ideas together, supporting the design and development of imaginative new technologies and concepts that can be the backbone of the stronger, greener, and more affordable rail network of tomorrow."

Does Britain really need two such sites for testing trains?

It looks to me like the Welsh site would allow the testing of high speed trains whereas Long Marston would not offer that facility?

 

[zwk500]

Sounds like the two facilities are not duplications but rather aimed at different things to test. Although how much of either has yet been built?

 

[DarloRich]

Is GCRE even fully funded?

 

[hwl]

I see that Porterbrook are planning to build a loop test track at Long Marston:> https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/long-marston



I am also aware of plans to build a similar test track at Onllwyn (pronounced oncline) about 1000ft up in the hills north of Neath on an old open cast coal mine:> https://www.gcre.wales/


Does Britain really need two such sites for testing trains?

It looks to me like the Welsh site would allow the testing of high speed trains whereas Long Marston would not offer that facility?

Sounds like the two facilities are not duplications but rather aimed at different things to test. Although how much of either has yet been built?

Work at Long Marston is well under way with some new track already in as well as the power supply. It will be much easier to clock up mileage at LM than then existing NR options (either linear test tracks or off peak on main lines for milage accumulation for fault free running testing).
The speeds at LM won't be high but it is comparatively cheap.

Overall there is a shortage on a European level for loop test tracks capacity which is what part of what Onllwyn is targetting.

 

[sefyllian]

Onllwyn (pronounced oncline)

That is not how to pronounce Onllwyn!

Easier to listen to than explain I think – here’s a video about the site with the correct pronunciation at around 10s in:

 

[John R]

Is GCRE even fully funded?

No, and I think investors are having the same concerns as the title of the thread with regard to an over abundance of test tracks, loopy or not.

 

[nwales58]

I have fears that GCRE could become another Circuit of Wales. I hope I'm wrong.

Are there outside investors yet and if so, how big? I thought it was our money at risk still.

 

[EUC]

That is not how to pronounce Onllwyn!

Easier to listen to than explain I think – here’s a video about the site with the correct pronunciation at around 10s in:

Quite.

Phonetically it's [ˈɔnɬʊɨn]. The first syllable is stressed and sounds similar to the English preposition "on". The second syllable starts with the voiceless alveolar lateral fricative /ɬ/ (think of the <ll> of Llanelli, Llundudno, or the <hl> in the Zulu place name Hluhluwe, or even the first <tl> sound of Tlingit, a language of the Pacific north west). <wy> is a falling /ʊɨ/ diphthong with an off-glide, but someone else will have to tell me if English has something similar. The last <n> is easy - it's very much like an English /n/ at the end of a word.

The place name can be translated "ash bush/grove". You may have heard of the traditional tune Llwyn Onn? The village of Onllwyn was the setting for the 2014 film based on the 1984/5 miners' strike, "Pride", staring Imelda Staunton and Bill Nighy.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Whether it is needed or not I don't know, but I hope it gets built and European testing gets done there. Good for the UK imho.

 

[Russel]

Does the test track at Old Dalby still see much use, if it is still operational, that is?

 

[zwk500]

Whether it is needed or not I don't know, but I hope it gets built and European testing gets done there. Good for the UK imho.

Unlikely any actual stock for Europe would be tested here, as it won't fit on our network so would need to be road hauled. There might be parts or technology that get developed in the UK for use abroad. A UK track competing with Velim or Wegberg-Wildenrath for European Gauges testing of complete vehicles is basically nil, IMO.

 

[takno]

I see that Porterbrook are planning to build a loop test track at Long Marston:> https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/long-marston



I am also aware of plans to build a similar test track at Onllwyn (pronounced oncline) about 1000ft up in the hills north of Neath on an old open cast coal mine:> https://www.gcre.wales/


Does Britain really need two such sites for testing trains?

It looks to me like the Welsh site would allow the testing of high speed trains whereas Long Marston would not offer that facility?

Long Marston is a couple of miles of loop around a substantial existing facility. It isn't a super-expensive national asset, more just a way to provide testing, running-in, and more effective warm storage. Most of the benefit is to stock and workshops which are already on the site.

The reason for Onllwyn existing is perhaps a little less clear.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Does the test track at Old Dalby still see much use, if it is still operational, that is?

I think the 93s were testing there recently.

 

[zwk500]

Does the test track at Old Dalby still see much use, if it is still operational, that is?

Appears to be, now referred to as RIDC Melton appparently. And you can hire it if you want, and have a few grand to spare:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/Test-Tracks-Brochure-Prices.pdf

 

[sad1e]

Don't the people that are building the test track at Onllwyn also own the 360/2's

Any idea what's happening with those in conjunction with the test track?

 

[pdeaves]

I think one of the ideas for Onllwyn was to test infrastructure, not just trains. So if, say, you developed a new rail profile you could lay some lengths at Onllwyn and run trains over it to see how it performs.

Presumably the 360/2s would be used for that kind of stuff (and no doubt lots of other things, too).

 

[D365]

Don't the people that are building the test track at Onllwyn also own the 360/2's

Any idea what's happening with those in conjunction with the test track?

Nothing on both counts, currently.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I think Onllwyn has pretty much stalled having failed to raise the private capital required. It's not totally dead in the water but may need more funding from the two Governments.

 

[fishwomp]

I see that Porterbrook are planning to build a loop test track at Long Marston:> https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/long-marston

I am also aware of plans to build a similar test track at Onllwyn (pronounced oncline) about 1000ft up in the hills north of Neath on an old open cast coal mine:> https://www.gcre.wales/

Does Britain really need two such sites for testing trains?

It looks to me like the Welsh site would allow the testing of high speed trains whereas Long Marston would not offer that facility?

Modern Railways did a good commentary on this in August (or perhaps July) edition.

Reads "dead in the water" to me - decent enough competition within the UK already, and then for a 'global centre of rail excellence' - it's not particularly globally useful, as so much manufacturing is elsewhere and the Wildenrath test track is very accessible and capable, and locally there is no (or not much) recent history of rail innovation excellence / experience. Perhaps from the era when everything was announced as 'world beating' which was a clue that it was not. It has however taken government seed money - and if an investor comes along it has government commitments of £70m.

https://www.gcre.wales/blog/looking-ahead/ is worth a read.

Sadly I just don't see Wales becoming "the global leader in rail R&D" - nor the UK - as a result of this. Undoubtedly ambitious, courageous etc. The region needs something given the loss of heavy industry recently, but perhaps this is not it.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There might be parts or technology that get developed in the UK for use abroad.

Well tilting trains were invented in the UK - APT and of course the basis for MAGLEV was the Linear Induction Motor courtesy of Professor Eric Laithwaite of Kirkham Grammar School and Imperial College London (sorry to show my bias having the exact same Alma Maters.)

Slightly OT but Onllwyn I always pronounced On - Clue - In - also did a railtour to there in the distant pass.

 

[sharpley]

Does the test track at Old Dalby still see much use, if it is still operational, that is?

Yes, Old Dalby is still in use. Think GBRf operate it now on behalf of NR. I live in Melton so get to see stuff reversing at Melton Mowbray Station to access the track. A 66 dragging an LNER 801 left the test track last week. EMR 810s are regular visitors also at the moment.

 

[Chris125]

Appears to be, now referred to as RIDC Melton appparently.

I think Gareth Dennis, new 'strategy lead' for NR's test sites, has brought back the Old Dalby and Test Track names.

 

[D365]

I think Gareth Dennis, new 'strategy lead' for NR's test sites, has brought back the Old Dalby and Test Track names.

Aha… I was wondering what exactly his job title is…

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think Onllwyn has pretty much stalled having failed to raise the private capital required. It's not totally dead in the water but may need more funding from the two Governments.

I would have thought that Onllwyn needs the HS2 rolling stock project testing to be done there, to get it up and running.
Except that the overall HS2 project has gone from limitless funds to near bankruptcy in the last couple of years.
It also needs major Alstom, and GBR, backing to get anywhere.
There's also a shortage of new orders in the pipeline until GBR/DFTO sort the rolling stock plan out.
The Welsh Government will keep plugging away to sell the concept, but can't afford the start-up funding without industry commitment to use the facility.

 

[fishwomp]

There's also a shortage of new orders in the pipeline until GBR/DFTO sort the rolling stock plan out.

Ah but being both global and excellent means UK dearth of orders is not a problem.. hmm.

Wales is excellent in narrow gauge though - which got me thinking about non-standard gauge railways and countries and their needs ... Ireland, Russia, Japan, India, Spain.. could inject another mad idea, 'global centre for narrow and broad gauge excellence'

The Welsh Government will keep plugging away to sell the concept, but can't afford the start-up funding without industry commitment to use the facility.

Even that is costing tax payers. It's also costing jobs because focusing on a bad idea instead of a good one sets back the good ideas.

 

[DelW]

Work at Long Marston is well under way with some new track already in as well as the power supply. It will be much easier to clock up mileage at LM than then existing NR options (either linear test tracks or off peak on main lines for milage accumulation for fault free running testing).
The speeds at LM won't be high but it is comparatively cheap.

Long Marston is a couple of miles of loop around a substantial existing facility. It isn't a super-expensive national asset, more just a way to provide testing, running-in, and more effective warm storage. Most of the benefit is to stock and workshops which are already on the site.

Looking at my most recent edition of Quail (2018), it shows a continuous single track loop around the whole site. So my take from the Porterbrook video linked above, is that this will be doubled to provide a second independent electrified track alongside. There will also be scope for experimental electrification and signalling equipment to be tested, as well as expansion of storage tracks.

So it seems to be a relatively modest expansion of their existing facilities, rather than the large scale new build that is/was proposed for Onllwyn.

 

[hwl]

Looking at my most recent edition of Quail (2018), it shows a continuous single track loop around the whole site. So my take from the Porterbrook video linked above, is that this will be doubled to provide a second independent electrified track alongside. There will also be scope for experimental electrification and signalling equipment to be tested, as well as expansion of storage tracks.

So it seems to be a relatively modest expansion of their existing facilities, rather than the large scale new build that is/was proposed for Onllwyn.

Exactly. Grotty old MOD bullhead replaced with two tracks with CWR, flatbottom rail with concrete sleepers for 50mph.

Storage track are already effectively done I think (and full of 701s and 769s)

 

[sad1e]

Storage track are already effectively done I think (and full of 701s and 769s)

To be honest i wonder how long the 769's will last stored in long Marston before they go for scrap, no operator exactly wants them and from their operations with northern they aren't exactly the most reliable.

The only future I've seen for them is the GBRF mail rail project that uses them although they only need small number of units for that.