Does a price capped oyster become a valid travelcard?

[Deerfold]

But by that token, the ‘mantra’ was broken long ago when TfL removed the (50p?) price difference between PAYG caps and paper travelcards, once PAYG was rolled out fully across National Rail.

No - they were two different products with the same price.
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The problem with that is that you are then breaking the travelcard is a product and Oyster is the storage medium mantra. The daily price cap is not a travelcard and there are significant differences, including the inability to use boundary zone tickets with a capped Oyster.

Can the same product not have more than one price? There's tickets East Coast will sell me online 10% cheaper than a local station will.

There's nothing to stop there being two different products on two different media in 3 forms altogether (1 day travelcard on paper, 1 day travelcard on Oyster, 1 day cap on Oyster).

 

[MikeWh]

But by that token, the ‘mantra’ was broken long ago when TfL removed the (50p?) price difference between PAYG caps and paper travelcards, once PAYG was rolled out fully across National Rail.

No, the mantra has nothing to do with the caps. It is that a travelcard is a travelcard regardless of whether it is on paper or electronically stored on an Oyster card. The travelcard is a product that costs £8.50 (currently for z1-6 off-peak) and entitles the holder to use boundary zone tickets.

 

[elagueesti]

I'm bitterly opposed to raising the paper travelcard price. If I need unlimited travel within London for a day (but not a week) and also need to go outside of London, I'll be paying more for my London travel than Joe Bloggs who just uses Oyster PAYG and gets capped. All because I have the nerve to want to buy a boundary zone 6 ticket in order to avoid paying for part of my journey twice.

 

[transmanche]

But by that token, the ‘mantra’ was broken long ago when TfL removed the (50p?) price difference between PAYG caps and paper travelcards, once PAYG was rolled out fully across National Rail.

And are restoring it next month...

 

[Be3G]

All because I have the nerve to want to buy a boundary zone 6 ticket in order to avoid paying for part of my journey twice.

Exactly! Those boundary zone tickets are hard enough to get around here as it is (thanks to having to find an open ticket office), and now they are placing a kind of surcharge on their use too.

Admittedly, there is one other difference between PAYG caps and paper one-day travelcards: the inclusion of 33%-off discounts on some river services using the latter (compared to 10% using PAYG). I don't, however, feel that that really warrants paying a higher price for the paper ticket.

 

[yorkie]

They want people to use smartcards. Fine. Allow us to load a one day Travelcard onto Oyster. Perhaps give a small discount to encourage people to load these Travelcards onto Oyster.

Perhaps there should be some petition for this? Or if enough people write to TfL will they consider it? Is there anyone in particular at TfL who values feedback and would actually listen to us?

 

[richw]

Can the same product not have more than one price?

In any other industry they can do, depending on the retailer.

 

[elagueesti]

Exactly! Those boundary zone tickets are hard enough to get around here as it is (thanks to having to find an open ticket office), and now they are placing a kind of surcharge on their use too.

Admittedly, there is one other difference between PAYG caps and paper one-day travelcards: the inclusion of 33%-off discounts on some river services using the latter (compared to 10% using PAYG). I don't, however, feel that that really warrants paying a higher price for the paper ticket.

Even at places like Waterloo or Victoria where there is always an open ticket office it can often mean missing your chosen train. At Paddington, the queue is normally made up of people who just want a CDR to Reading - quite why they don't save their time and use a ticket machine I never know!

Also seems a mystery to me why you can't buy a BZ6 ticket from a ticket machine. It can't be about validating whether you have a travelcard or not surely, as you can get all myriad of discounts from a ticket machine without someone checking you're entitled to them. I've bought BZ6s from Paddington plenty of times without ever having to prove I had a valid travelcard.

 

[tannedfrog]

I'm bitterly opposed to raising the paper travelcard price. If I need unlimited travel within London for a day (but not a week) and also need to go outside of London, I'll be paying more for my London travel than Joe Bloggs who just uses Oyster PAYG and gets capped. All because I have the nerve to want to buy a boundary zone 6 ticket in order to avoid paying for part of my journey twice.

What makes it worse is that there are Boundary Zone tickets which cost more than the closest-match station-to-station ticket, however with a One Day Travelcard you are obliged to buy the Boundary Zone ticket to use a non-stopping train

 

[elagueesti]

Another interesting little snippet - today I need to travel to Bluewater and there is an integrated ticket which allows me to get the bus from Greenhithe to the shopping centre. However, they cannot sell tickets from BZ6 to Bluewater, only from a named station - they normally sell me a Slade Green to Bluewater ticket.

I was wondering what happens if I caught the XX:56 from Charing Cross (which calls at Greenhithe but doesn't call at Slade Green) and was asked for my ticket by an RPI? The last zonal station that the XX:56 passes is Crayford. I've never been asked for my ticket before whilst doing that route, but you never know.

 

[yorkie]

I was wondering what happens if I caught the XX:56 from Charing Cross (which calls at Greenhithe but doesn't call at Slade Green) and was asked for my ticket by an RPI? The last zonal station that the XX:56 passes is Crayford. I've never been asked for my ticket before whilst doing that route, but you never know.

If it's a Travelcard Season it's valid. If it's a Day Travelcard it's technically not valid but some TOCs have a policy of accepting such tickets in those circumstances. I do not know SETs policy.

 

[elagueesti]

If it's a Travelcard Season it's valid. If it's a Day Travelcard it's technically not valid but some TOCs have a policy of accepting such tickets in those circumstances. I do not know SETs policy.

It's a day travelcard.

My real point though is if an RPI asked for my ticket after leaving Crayford and I have a travelcard plus a Slade Green to Bluewater ticket, am I technically in the wrong? As my train never passes through of stops at Slade Green. Because I actually wanted a BZ6 to Bluewater and it's not my fault if their computers can't handle it!

 

[island]

Even at places like Waterloo or Victoria where there is always an open ticket office it can often mean missing your chosen train. At Paddington, the queue is normally made up of people who just want a CDR to Reading - quite why they don't save their time and use a ticket machine I never know!

Some people don't like ticket machines, are afraid they will be overcharged, are afraid they will pick the wrong option and get "fined", or "just want to speak to a human being".

Another interesting little snippet - today I need to travel to Bluewater and there is an integrated ticket which allows me to get the bus from Greenhithe to the shopping centre. However, they cannot sell tickets from BZ6 to Bluewater, only from a named station - they normally sell me a Slade Green to Bluewater ticket.

There is no fare defined from BZ6 (0072) to Bluewater (G223). Nothing to do with computer systems not supporting it.

I was wondering what happens if I caught the XX:56 from Charing Cross (which calls at Greenhithe but doesn't call at Slade Green) and was asked for my ticket by an RPI? The last zonal station that the XX:56 passes is Crayford. I've never been asked for my ticket before whilst doing that route, but you never know.

Technically you are liable to a penalty fare as you would not have a ticket between Crayford and Dartford. This is irrespective of whether your Travelcard is a day or a season ticket. If you were travelling on the semi-fast service via Lewisham and Woolwich Arsenal you would be OK with a weekly or longer Travelcard plus a single/return from Slade Green to Bluewater, but not with a day Travelcard.

If you hold a Day Travelcard, to travel on the Sidcup line all-stops service, you need a ticket from Crayford to Bluewater. If using the semi-fast service you would need either Abbey Wood to Bluewater (as Abbey Wood is the last stop on that service at which a day Travelcard is valid) or Boundary Zone 6 to Greenhithe (which is sold), then pay for the Fastrack bus separately (£1 single).

Rather than all this palaver, I would instead suggest getting off your train at Woolwich Arsenal, Bexleyheath, or Crayford (as applicable to which train you get) and using the 96 bus to get to Bluewater. Your Travelcard can be used on this bus.

 

[barrykas]

Another interesting little snippet - today I need to travel to Bluewater and there is an integrated ticket which allows me to get the bus from Greenhithe to the shopping centre. However, they cannot sell tickets from BZ6 to Bluewater, only from a named station - they normally sell me a Slade Green to Bluewater ticket.

A workaround for that would be to issue separate Boundary Zone 6 - Greenhithe and Greenhithe - Bluewater tickets, which would solve the problem of needing to be on a train that stops where you change from one ticket to the other.

 

[clagmonster]

When Oyster PAYG is used, on tapping in, what ticket is actually held? Could you argue that it is in effect a single from the entry station (in this case Waterloo) and Bondary Zone 6 (or 9, or Watford Junction, or Grays) and is effectively downgraded if and when it is touched out?
In this case, a touched in Oyster and a Boundary Zone 6 to Woking would be valid. That said, a Clapham Jn-Woking ticket certainly isn't as it is not zonal, even if you argue that you are 'starting short' at Bondary Zone 6.

 

[elagueesti]

Some people don't like ticket machines, are afraid they will be overcharged, are afraid they will pick the wrong option and get "fined", or "just want to speak to a human being".

There is no fare defined from BZ6 (0072) to Bluewater (G223). Nothing to do with computer systems not supporting it.

Technically you are liable to a penalty fare as you would not have a ticket between Crayford and Dartford. This is irrespective of whether your Travelcard is a day or a season ticket. If you were travelling on the semi-fast service via Lewisham and Woolwich Arsenal you would be OK with a weekly or longer Travelcard plus a single/return from Slade Green to Bluewater, but not with a day Travelcard.

If you hold a Day Travelcard, to travel on the Sidcup line all-stops service, you need a ticket from Crayford to Bluewater. If using the semi-fast service you would need either Abbey Wood to Bluewater (as Abbey Wood is the last stop on that service at which a day Travelcard is valid) or Boundary Zone 6 to Greenhithe (which is sold), then pay for the Fastrack bus separately (£1 single).

Rather than all this palaver, I would instead suggest getting off your train at Woolwich Arsenal, Bexleyheath, or Crayford (as applicable to which train you get) and using the 96 bus to get to Bluewater. Your Travelcard can be used on this bus.

I thought the argument about computer systems was somewhat dubious, but it is what I was told at Charing Cross.

Annoying though, as I just asked for a BZ6 to Bluewater and was handed a Slade Green to Bluewater ticket. Only when I queried it was an explanation (albeit an incorrect one) given.

I do know about the 96, however I find the journey to be invariably delayed. Plus I really hate sitting on it, surrounded by loud kids, idiotic parents and people shouting into their mobile phones.

 

[MikeWh]

It is my considered opinion that a day travelcard and a Slade Green to Greenhithe ticket is perfectly valid between Crayford and Dartford. You simply start short on a Slade Green to Dartford via Crayford journey which is no more than 3 miles longer than the direct route.

 

[barrykas]

When Oyster PAYG is used, on tapping in, what ticket is actually held? Could you argue that it is in effect a single from the entry station (in this case Waterloo) and Bondary Zone 6 (or 9, or Watford Junction, or Grays) and is effectively downgraded if and when it is touched out?

What's held is a validated Oyster, not a ticket. There doesn't appear to be any mention of not being able to combine PAYG with a paper extension ticket on the TfL site.

It is, however, covered in the "Oyster Conditions of Use", which are linked from the National Rail Conditions of Carriage page on the National Rail site.

More specifically, Condition 3.17:

If you are transferring to a National Rail service with the intention of travelling outside the London National Rail Pay As You Go area you must touch out at a station within the London National Rail Pay As You Go Area to complete your Oyster pay as you go journey. You will need a separate ticket to cover the journey you make after you have touched out. If you are transferring from a National Rail service on which you have travelled from outside the London National Rail Pay As You Go area and you wish to continue your journey using Oyster pay as you go, you must touch in at a station within the London National Rail Pay As You Go Area in order to commence your Oyster pay as you go journey.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[clagmonster]

Thanks Barry, that does indeed cover it. It was something I didn't think should be allowed, but I couldn't see why it was prohibited, but you have cleared it up nicely. Not that I see any advantage to a maximum fare and Boundary Zone fare, I think in all cases there would be a cheaper solution/