Does ‘the railway’ enjoy making things difficult for all its users?

[Fokx]

I don't appreciate some of the responses in this thread which have annoyed me into replying in a way that might come across that is very black and white/obstructive.

Rightly so when you’ve got posters demanding you give them fares information when you’re not at work and others (who both work in and don’t work in the rail industry) telling you you’re TOC’s policies

 

[Berliner]

Are you suggesting the experiences of myself and others are not valid concerns?

Your concerns are as valid as anyone elses.

But what I think is wrong is that you've all decided to pile on to one particular forum member who is simply explaining their way of working at their TOC. Its not for anyone here to decide how they do their job unless you know their specific location, TOC and internal policies and are in the same role.

I have never wishes away any jobs; where have I said that? The modern way of working is to redeploy staff on more customer facing roles.

I do t have to wish for it; it is happening. However the actions of some ticket office staff are potentially accelerating the process.

Please withdraw your allegation and inappropriate remark.

I won't be withdrawing any remarks as such.

Unless I have misunderstood your posts.Its clear you have a vendetta against ticket offices and staff and are quite looking forward to thier demise. So perhaps not wishing exactly, but quite hostile towards them.

Either way it doesn't affect me as I no longer use ticket offices, and I hope others will read this thread and gain an understanding of how obstructive ticket offices can be, and avoid wasting their time with them.

However I am no longer inconvenienced as I buy online. I am keen for all ticket types to be sold online so that ticket offices are completely redundant and I am very pleased to see matters progressing in the right direction.

Therefore I am happy to see that ticket office usage has declined rapidly and I look forward to seeing further declines in their use.

Hopefully threads like this will spread the word that ticket offices are not worth visiting, except in a last resort, and we can avoid people being inconvenienced.

 

[The exile]

It is better customer service to refuse someone a railcard discounted ticket on the basis that they don’t have it in their possession than it is for said passenger to once again forget their railcard, board a train and end up with a chunky penalty fare.

But even better to ask if they have a railcard, receive the answer “yes”, sell the discounted (advance) ticket and point out that the customer should check its validity before they travel and make sure they have it with them. Just seeing it when they purchase is not going to guarantee they remember it 2 weeks later.

 

[Ken H]

It is better customer service to refuse someone a railcard discounted ticket on the basis that they don’t have it in their possession than it is for said passenger to once again forget their railcard, board a train and end up with a chunky penalty fare.

I had to deal with quite an agitated passenger yesterday who boarded my train with an expired railcard because he wasn’t checked before boarding by gateline staff at a non-barriered station or by the ticket office.

Why cant barriers check railcards. If someone tries to get through with a railcard ticket and no rail card the barriers dont open. That would stop people boarding a train without a valid railcard, and prompt them to go and buy one. Customer service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not necessarily just disabled railcards, it depends on the circumstances and my judgement of the situation; if I see that it would cause unnecessary stress and difficulty by refusing the discount there and then (for example if someone has a mobility problem of any kind and would have to make an additional trip to go and get their railcard or extra money to buy one), then I'll give them the discount and advise them politely to make sure they have their railcard (or have bought/renewed it) on the day of travel.

So, the person at your window is a rough-looking "scally" dressed in a tracksuit who's got £20 for their cheapest Advance, has paid their bus fare to the station, but if you send them back home again they won't be able to afford the journey at all, because by the time they can return the Advance has gone up and they'll need to pay another bus fare. Or perhaps they can afford the Advance this month but the Railcard next.

Do you let them off?

What about the autistic person who panics and so comes across as shouty and angry? (Sometimes as simple a conversation as buying a ticket requires pre-planning for such a person, and if it goes "off script" they just panic and may come across as angry or abusive despite this being entirely down to their disability).

Or just the friendly looking old grandma who's actually a fare dodger and has no intention of buying the Railcard, and will just sweet talk their way to nothing more than an excess to an undiscounted ticket if they get caught?

This is the fundamental problem with the "attitude test" as applied throughout the railway, and is why things need to be consistent, clear and applied to everyone by all channels and the same for all TOCs. (It is one key reason why I don't think the railway should be able to prosecute other than for cases where a full-blown fraud charge would be applicable - just a £50+fare PF for everyone unless they meet a set of written criteria applied equally and fairly to all).

 

[Philip]

Your concerns are as valid as anyone elses.

But what I think is wrong is that you've all decided to pile on to one particular forum member who is simply explaining their way of working at their TOC. Its not for anyone here to decide how they do their job unless you know their specific location, TOC and internal policies and are in the same role.


I won't be withdrawing any remarks as such.

Unless I have misunderstood your posts.Its clear you have a vendetta against ticket offices and staff and are quite looking forward to thier demise. So perhaps not wishing exactly, but quite hostile towards them.

Thanks. Some of the posts in thus thread have come across a bit patronising and antagonistic. There are a wide range of different circumstances in the ticket office role, the ticketing system is complex and as said there are the rules and guidelines from the employer, so it's rare to find a completely consistent approach. I will conclude that most of the colleagues I know go to work with the intention not to make life difficult for passengers or to be unfriendly, but to help them and help get them good deals. Sometimes we get it wrong, but that goes with most jobs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==

So, the person at your window is a rough-looking "scally" dressed in a tracksuit who's got £20 for their cheapest Advance, has paid their bus fare to the station, but if you send them back home again they won't be able to afford the journey at all, because by the time they can return the Advance has gone up and they'll need to pay another bus fare. Or perhaps they can afford the Advance this month but the Railcard next.

Do you let them off?

What about the autistic person who panics and so comes across as shouty and angry? (Sometimes as simple a conversation as buying a ticket requires pre-planning for such a person, and if it goes "off script" they just panic and may come across as angry or abusive despite this being entirely down to their disability).

Or just the friendly looking old grandma who's actually a fare dodger and has no intention of buying the Railcard?

This is the fundamental problem with the "attitude test" as applied throughout the railway, and is why things need to be consistent, clear and applied to everyone by all channels and the same for all TOCs. (It is one key reason why I don't think the railway should be able to prosecute other than for cases where a full-blown fraud charge would be applicable - just a £50+fare PF for everyone unless they meet a set of written criteria applied equally and fairly to all).

This isn’t just a railway problem, the attitude test applies in other industries and arguably across society in general. Not saying it's right, just the way things are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This isn’t just a railway problem, the attitude test applies in other industries and arguably across society in general. Not saying it's right, just the way things are.

Though the railway has an almost unique ability to make peoples' lives hard using it due to its legal backing, and an almost unique complexity to its product. Though to be fair airlines come close (anyone who's watched the old easyJet documentary has seen that enough times) they at least can't prosecute, just refuse travel. (I know this case is about refusal, not prosecution, but I'm just highlighting how the railway is more powerful than most other retailers or similar).

 

[bramling]

Though the railway has an almost unique ability to make peoples' lives hard using it due to its legal backing, and an almost unique complexity to its product. Though to be fair airlines come close (anyone who's watched the old easyJet documentary has seen that enough times) they at least can't prosecute, just refuse travel.

Meanwhile, GP surgeries don’t even need an attitude test. Their test is now how many milliseconds after 0800 can you get on the phone to try and book an appointment.

If the railways make life difficult for users, they’re far from the only institution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Meanwhile, GP surgeries don’t even need an attitude test. Their test is now how many milliseconds after 0800 can you get on the phone to try and book an appointment.

If the railways make life difficult for users, they’re far from the only institution.

Absolutely, the NHS is appalling in the way it deals with people at times. Though some of it can be very good.

I do remember having "lost it" a bit (verbally) with an NHS nurse a while back (due to stress and concern about what I was seeing them for), they didn't kick me out but actually successfully calmed me down (after which I apologised profusely). That's the side of the NHS which can be absolutely wonderful.

GP receptionists on the other hand seem to be instructed to PREVENT use of the surgery*, as well as to breach GDPR by shouting all manner of stuff like full names, DoBs and conditions all over the waiting room. Most of them (I think it is that bad) are in the wrong job and should be replaced.

* I don't mean they're doing triage (which is fine, but should be done in privacy), I just mean making life hard for everyone regardless of if they're being a hypochondriac or genuinely about to drop dead.

 

[WideRanger]

I feel a bit sad about how @Philip has been the focus of the frustration in this thread. I think the various scenarios outlined have illustrated that the system has some dysfunction in it. @Philip has explained his approach, which may or may not lead to a great outcome for customers. But, I'd like to think he is sincerely trying to do what is right, given the direction he has had from his employer. It feels unfair to pin all the blame on him, just because he has given his perspective.

The thread has brought up some clear inconsistencies in policy, or perhaps in training. So perhaps that can be focused on? Play the ball and not the man, and all that....

 

[bramling]

I feel a bit sad about how @Philip has been the focus of the frustration in this thread. I think the various scenarios outlined have illustrated that the system has some dysfunction in it. @Philip has explained his approach, which may or may not lead to a great outcome for customers. But, I'd like to think he is sincerely trying to do what is right, given the direction he has had from his employer. It feels unfair to pin all the blame on him, just because he has given his perspective.

The thread has brought up some clear inconsistencies in policy, or perhaps in training. So perhaps that can be focused on? Play the ball and not the man, and all that....

Agreed entirely. If it’s the case that people are having bad experiences with booking offices (which I don’t doubt as I’ve experienced issues myself at times), we have to ask the question why the industry has failed to address this.

I’d lay the blame more on ineffective management, and a ticketing structure which has become ever more complex. People on here may be confident negotiating other means of buying tickets because they have a better than average understanding of ticketing, however this isn’t going to apply to a good proportion of the travelling public. Indeed personally I have barely a clue about different ticket types and restrictions, just as well I have a PRIV and supply of boxes. Occasionally in my work I get asked questions about ticketing, and I simply can’t get in to it as I don’t have the knowledge, especially with the various electronic ticketing versions.

The solution to all this is to attempt to make booking offices work properly, not simply to wish them to disappear -though I can certainly fully understand the view of why should I subsidise something which offers me little if any value.

I do find it a little odd to seemingly lay all the blame at booking office staff, and seemingly little if any at the system and management which has allowed this situation to prevail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d lay the blame more on ineffective management, and a ticketing structure which has become ever more complex.

While the latter does need solving, I'd say more the former. The issue isn't new - I had issues, particularly with the classic lazy Merseyrail clerk, way back in the 90s, as I noted above with regard to the classic "you need to go to Lime St for that"* and "a return from Liverpool to London is only valid direct" and such similar tripe. I'd say it's a bad culture and bad management failing to influence that culture, primarily.

The culture should, to bring value, be of expertise, a desire to help and most importantly openness to learning. (Refusal to look stuff up when questioned on whether it's right is a classic failing - if you're that convinced why not look it up and prove the customer wrong?)

The culture sadly very often is having an easy life and being unwilling to accept being wrong.

* Not every Merseyrail station used to have a reservations terminal, only the bigger ones, but they could always phone through to a bigger one to do it and handwrite the reservation ticket. Some would do it, some were just bone-idle and wouldn't.

 

[RT4038]

Though the railway has an almost unique ability to make peoples' lives hard using it due to its legal backing, and an almost unique complexity to its product. Though to be fair airlines come close (anyone who's watched the old easyJet documentary has seen that enough times) they at least can't prosecute, just refuse travel. (I know this case is about refusal, not prosecution, but I'm just highlighting how the railway is more powerful than most other retailers or similar).

I do not think there is much comparison with the airlines - every point of entry is manned and secure and tickets (for which there is compulsory reservation and therefore valid on one specific flight, usually for a specific seat) rigorously checked for validity before one gets anywhere near a plane. Over-riding ones ticketed destination is just not a practicable possibility. There aren't the equivalent of railcard discounts etc, and adult passengers purchasing child tickets are easily found by the compulsory ID production. The airlines have almost no reason to prosecute for ticketing offences. The fare system may be as byzantine as the railway's, but this does not matter as they are entirely computerised and compulsory reserved so the passengers have little possibility of using tickets for anything than was straightforwardly intended.

The problem is that the railways are mass transit and carrying vast quantities of passengers daily, and the amount of front line staff time available per passenger is very, very limited. Passengers have very diverse expectations and it is simply not possible, or economical, to cater for every possibility. You only have to read some of the threads on this forum to see how many different people somehow expect the railway cater for their particular financial circumstances, their individual journey, their particular desire of comfort, their particular need for attention etc etc. Add to that the propensity of some to exploit loopholes, commit fraud, travel without paying, antisocial behaviour etc means a plethora of rules and threats of prosecution. Of course, the people who would never dream of doing any of these things then feel aggrieved that they are affected by these rules and threats. Those who are between the two camps will have differing views too.

I don't think Ticket Office staff have ever generally had enormous knowledge of the range of ticketing products, or of the train services on offer, other than in their local area. In the past, the range of ticket products/fares was much less than it is now, but the explosion in this has been as the railway has tried to cater more and more differing customer requirements in order to boost revenue, which has been successful in growing the market, both reducing subsidy and permitting greater frequency of service. But this has been at the expense of a confusing ticket system to the outsider.

I doubt it is economically sensible to train Ticket Clerks to the extent of the aficionados in this forum and elsewhere, especially as the industry would probably rather move towards the airline model of ticket / reservation sales outside of local / suburban lines.

 

[BayPaul]

Moving away from very specific ticketing questions, in my mind there are many ways in which The Railway (TOCs, DfT, Staff, Unions, etc) take actions or inactions that seem to be there to annoy the passenger. Whilst I suspect it is indifference rather than actual enjoyment as per the thread title, I think it does show how poor the industry is. Off the top of my head, a few examples include

• Quickest journey not being a permitted route for any permitted fares.
• Terrible interfaces on many TVMs and apps
• TOC specific fares that are only 10p cheaper than any permitted
• Different smart cards for different TOCs
• The delay repay procedure - why do I need to work out exactly where in my journey the issue occurred, and use a different process for each TOC, rather than have the retailer or a central servuce do it.
• Why can't advance fares have automatic or seem-automatic delay repay.
• No automated emails giving suggested routes in the event of disruption to an advance ticket train
• No automatic ticket acceptance in the event of disruption.
• Generally poor /lacking announcements in the event of disruption.
• Doors closing up to 30 seconds before departure - why not make the public departure time the moment the doors close.
• Door opening buttons that don't remember you've pushed them, so you have to keep jabbing them
• Very slow and inconsistent door opening procedures
• Guards who don't walk up and down the train occasionally
• 3+2 seating on any train less than 10 carriages
• InterCity train interiors that look like hospitals. Why not warm white lighting and restful colours
• Train layouts that seem to have no actual thought
• Gaps in carriage lettering, especially when done electronically. A, b, c, d, e should always be the sequence.
• See it, say it, sorted
• Inconsistent branding on trains. Either there is a benefit in a TOC having their own livery, or not. How come it takes years to change colours - either do it quickly or don't bother.

 

[The Planner]

Moving away from very specific ticketing questions, in my mind there are many ways in which The Railway (TOCs, DfT, Staff, Unions, etc) take actions or inactions that seem to be there to annoy the passenger. Whilst I suspect it is indifference rather than actual enjoyment as per the thread title, I think it does show how poor the industry is. Off the top of my head, a few examples include

• Doors closing up to 30 seconds before departure - why not make the public departure time the moment the doors close.

Lets not go down that rabbit hole again...

 

[43066]

Doors closing up to 30 seconds before departure - why not make the public departure time the moment the doors close.

Because then every train would leave late?

 

[Cloud Strife]

Meanwhile, GP surgeries don’t even need an attitude test. Their test is now how many milliseconds after 0800 can you get on the phone to try and book an appointment.

GP surgeries and ticket offices have one thing in common: a problematic attitude with gatekeeping. It's where they make up their own rules and interpretations to deny service for whatever reason, and then they get incredibly defensive when their nonsense is highlighted. They get even worse when you escalate the situation.

I've experienced this once with my old GP, where they wouldn't answer the phone. I finally had enough, so I turned up one day and tried to call them from outside. No answer yet again, so I went inside and tried to call them again. It was obvious that they'd silenced the phone somehow, so I asked them very politely if the phone was ringing. They said "no, it's not", so I showed them my phone that was currently calling their number.

End result? A meltdown involving threats to remove me from the register. I was calm and polite throughout, but you could see that they regarded phone calls as an unwanted nuisance.

I understand completely when the person is explicitly told not to do something (like sell tickets without a railcard) as it's not their fault, but there can be no excuse for this kind of gatekeeping. It's incredibly common in customer-facing positions, and I actually did some work for a company who was plagued with this. The staff would routinely make up all sorts of nonsense to get rid of difficult customers, and it was clear that it was having a significant influence on their bottom line.

Referring back to the railway, it's my impression that much of it is designed to be as user-unfriendly as possible. The whole concept of charging someone 100 pounds or even more for a very small mistake is really out of order, especially when the matter can be cleared by simply issuing a new ticket. Taking my local railway company, Koleje Dolnośląskie into consideration, the standard process is that you can either buy the ticket onboard if you don't have one (with an additional, reasonable fee if you boarded at a staffed station), or if you don't have money, they'll simply issue you with an invoice to be paid within 14 days with a small additional charge.

 

[akm]

I do not think there is much comparison with the airlines - every point of entry is manned and secure and tickets (for which there is compulsory reservation and therefore valid on one specific flight, usually for a specific seat) rigorously checked for validity before one gets anywhere near a plane. Over-riding ones ticketed destination is just not a practicable possibility. There aren't the equivalent of railcard discounts etc, and adult passengers purchasing child tickets are easily found by the compulsory ID production. The airlines have almost no reason to prosecute for ticketing offences. The fare system may be as byzantine as the railway's, but this does not matter as they are entirely computerised and compulsory reserved so the passengers have little possibility of using tickets for anything than was straightforwardly intended.

The problem is that the railways are mass transit and carrying vast quantities of passengers daily, and the amount of front line staff time available per passenger is very, very limited. Passengers have very diverse expectations and it is simply not possible, or economical, to cater for every possibility. You only have to read some of the threads on this forum to see how many different people somehow expect the railway cater for their particular financial circumstances, their individual journey, their particular desire of comfort, their particular need for attention etc etc. Add to that the propensity of some to exploit loopholes, commit fraud, travel without paying, antisocial behaviour etc means a plethora of rules and threats of prosecution. Of course, the people who would never dream of doing any of these things then feel aggrieved that they are affected by these rules and threats. Those who are between the two camps will have differing views too.

I don't think Ticket Office staff have ever generally had enormous knowledge of the range of ticketing products, or of the train services on offer, other than in their local area. In the past, the range of ticket products/fares was much less than it is now, but the explosion in this has been as the railway has tried to cater more and more differing customer requirements in order to boost revenue, which has been successful in growing the market, both reducing subsidy and permitting greater frequency of service. But this has been at the expense of a confusing ticket system to the outsider.

I doubt it is economically sensible to train Ticket Clerks to the extent of the aficionados in this forum and elsewhere, especially as the industry would probably rather move towards the airline model of ticket / reservation sales outside of local / suburban lines.

Careful, this level of balance, nuance, and considering-multiple-points-of-view will get you shouted out of this thread

 

[The exile]

, or if you don't have money, they'll simply issue you with an invoice to be paid within 14 days with a small additional charge.

Without wishing to open a new can of worms- that kind of approach works where people are legally obliged to carry national ID but is difficult in a country that doesn’t have that as a legal requirement.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Another one I noticed twice in the same day recent is the new habit of having trains stopping with the front at the end of the platform, however short the train is and thus how far the rear of the train is from the entrance/shelter/facilities/platform staff's position.

At Kingston, most trains are still 8 car but platforms 2 and 3 have been extended to take 10-car trains. On platform 2, the rear of an 8-car now stops next to a part of the platform made narrow by the presence of buildings, and I have seen several people miss trains because the rear can't be seen clearly from the entrance to the platform (all you can see coming up the stairs is the empty track behind the train). It also means there are only two cars under the canopy (which is long enough to take four) and there is a scrum as people leaving the train come into conflict at the bottleneck with people trying to get to the train. Curiously, on platfom 3, trains still have an 8-car stop.

At Grantham, many trains (e.g Hull Trains, Azumas to Lincoln) are 5 car and again pull right up to the end of platform 2, several car lengths from the footbridge and the awning, and next to a part of the platform which is very narrow because of the presence of bay platform 3.

Why are 5-car, 8-car etc stops disappearing? Definitely an inconvenience to the passenger.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Without wishing to open a new can of worms- that kind of approach works where people are legally obliged to carry national ID but is difficult in a country that doesn’t have that as a legal requirement.

Absolutely, but it shows the benefits of such a system. There's no need to radio or call anyone, there's no need to charge them a small fortune, it just works.

It's not to say that the system in mainland Europe doesn't have problems. There are huge, huge issues with rent-a-cop ticket controllers on municipal transport, for instance.

 

[Dai Corner]

Absolutely, but it shows the benefits of such a system. There's no need to radio or call anyone, there's no need to charge them a small fortune, it just works.

It's not to say that the system in mainland Europe doesn't have problems. There are huge, huge issues with rent-a-cop ticket controllers on municipal transport, for instance.

Presumably that reflects a huge problem with fare evasion?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably that reflects a huge problem with fare evasion?

People on here seem to think Germans are all very well behaved and always pay, but in reality Schwarzfahren might as well be a national sport, and they would do well to consider introducing gatelines, while almost all bus operations have removed open boarding (moving to on at the front, off at the back, show the driver your ticket, as per London) due to the huge amount of fare dodging it caused.

Nederlandse Spoorwegen of course have gone gated, and Amsterdam trams for a while (may still be the case) had you have to board by the driver or a mid-unit conductor in a little booth and show your ticket.

 

[Haywain]

Why are 5-car, 8-car etc stops disappearing? Definitely an inconvenience to the passenger.

Because of 'safety'. Apparently drivers can't be trusted to remember how long the train they are driving might be. And if the train stops in the wrong place the guard might release the doors without first checking that a platform is in place. That's roughly my understanding, anyway.

 

[bramling]

Because of 'safety'. Apparently drivers can't be trusted to remember how long the train they are driving might be. And if the train stops in the wrong place the guard might release the doors without first checking that a platform is in place. That's roughly my understanding, anyway.

Yes it’s quite a hot issue at the moment.

But it isn’t a new one, and one might have thought the industry would have come up with an engineered safeguard by now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because of 'safety'. Apparently drivers can't be trusted to remember how long the train they are driving might be. And if the train stops in the wrong place the guard might release the doors without first checking that a platform is in place. That's roughly my understanding, anyway.

I could understand it for DOO, but guards are meant to actually get out and look, aren't they?

 

[Haywain]

I could understand it for DOO, but guards are meant to actually get out and look, aren't they?

Quite - so it requires the driver to forget the length of the train he's driving AND the guard to forget to check there's a platform before he releases the doors.

 

[43066]

Why are 5-car, 8-car etc stops disappearing? Definitely an inconvenience to the passenger.

They aren’t?

We’ve recently had a lot more added. Boards can be added/removed/moved due to various issues.

Because of 'safety'. Apparently drivers can't be trusted to remember how long the train they are driving might be. And if the train stops in the wrong place the guard might release the doors without first checking that a platform is in place. That's roughly my understanding, anyway.

We’re none of us perfect. Apparently ticket office staff can’t be trusted to sell tickets correctly either .

Are you saying there’s a network wide programme to remove stop car marks and have all trains stop at the end of every platform? First I’ve heard of it.

Yes it’s quite a hot issue at the moment.

But it isn’t a new one, and one might have thought the industry would have come up with an engineered safeguard by now.

£££

 

[norbitonflyer]

Quite - so it requires the driver to forget the length of the train he's driving AND the guard to forget to check there's a platform before he releases the doors.

Quite so. And neither station is served by any DOO trains.

Never mind whether there's a platform next to the train - how long before a blind person is injured through failing to realise there is no train next to the platform, because although he's heard it come in, it's gone right past and stopped a long way from the entrance?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never mind whether there's a platform next to the train - how long before a blind person is injured through failing to realise there is no train next to the platform, because although he's heard it come in, it's gone right past and stopped a long way from the entrance?

That isn't very likely, because they'd need to feel with their cane to see if they were about to enter a doorway or walk into the side of it or down the gap between the coaches.