Does ‘the railway’ enjoy making things difficult for all its users?

[Philip]

The worry I have is the TOCs will likely use closure as a way to simply de-staff rather than repurpose staff to more customer focussed roles (which I agree is necessary nowadays).

As for cost it will make no appreciable difference to fares…



Agreed. And of course on the railway the abuse certainly isn’t limited to being shouted at. I have had colleagues who’ve been physically and sexually assaulted, spat at, stabbed etc.



But rail cards cannot be post dated so it isn’t a current solution. AFAIK there are no plans to implement it either, so I don’t see the relevance of this suggestion?

But this thread is also about ways the railway can improve things for passengers. What I've put forward about post-dating railcards is one suggestion we shouldn't be too difficult to implement and which avoids this grey area/interpretation for ticket office staff in relation to checking the railcard and whether or not to issue without the railcard present, whilst also helping the customer. I'm not sure why you're so dismissive of it?

 

[yorkie]

Ah so here's an example of how we try to save a bit if money for the passenger (which is exactly what it is, no 'look at me' or 'power trip' reasons as has been suggested) and you still find fault. It feels more like you have an agenda against ticket offices in general than concerned about poor customer service.

You earlier said you applied the rules; others have questioned this and I can't see your answer to them.

Say I turn up today asking for 2 senior Railcard single tickets for one month's time, 3rd September, Formby to Matlock departing 12:13.

I obviously won't have the railcards on me (I buy tickets for family members' journeys, as well as members of groups I am travelling with; I'm obviously not going to carry someone else's Railcard).

If you can say what tickets and price you would offer that for, I would be interested to hear your answer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==

But this thread is also about ways the railway can improve things for passengers. What I've put forward about post-dating railcards is one suggestion we shouldn't be too difficult to implement and which avoids this grey area/interpretation for ticket office staff in relation to checking the railcard and whether or not to issue without the railcard present, whilst also helping the customer. I'm not sure why you're so dismissive of it?

We are talking about actual experiences. If you have a speculative proposal to change the system please post this on the speculative discussion area.

 

[Deafdoggie]

But this thread is also about ways the railway can improve things for passengers. What I've put forward about post-dating railcards is one suggestion we shouldn't be too difficult to implement and which avoids this grey area/interpretation for ticket office staff in relation to checking the railcard and whether or not to issue without the railcard present, whilst also helping the customer. I'm not sure why you're so dismissive of it?

Because it's totally unnecessary. Simply do the same as TVM and online and don't check at time of purchase only at time of travel. Zero cost to the industry.

 

[Philip]

On the first point- there’s a difference between checking validity of a railcard at point of sale as part of customer service (you do know, don’t you sir, that this particular railcard expires before the day you’re travelling and you’ll need to renew

On the second - there’s a world of difference between “the boss hasn’t told me to do xyz” and “ the boss has told me not to do xyz”. I wonder which is actually the case!

On the first point- there’s a difference between checking validity of a railcard at point of sale as part of customer service (you do know, don’t you sir, that this particular railcard expires before the day you’re travelling and you’ll need to renew it before then?) and refusing to sell on the basis that someone hasn’t got the railcard with them.

On the second - there’s a world of difference between “the boss hasn’t told me to do xyz” and “ the boss has told me not to do xyz”. I wonder which is actually the case!

Specifically we were told to check railcards regardless of the type of ticket and in the past it has been something mystery shoppers have flagged.

 

[Runningaround]

Porthmadog to Caernarfon (HQ of your local authority) is certainly a lot easier by bus than by train!

And cheaper, the WHR or Via Shrewsbury and Bangor is very expensive but significantly slower.

 

[yorkie]

Specifically we were told to check railcards regardless of the type of ticket and in the past it has been something mystery shoppers have flagged.

Given other train companies take a pragmatic approach it sounds like there is a real lack of common sense on the part of sellers, mystery shoppers and management.

Either way it doesn't affect me as I no longer use ticket offices, and I hope others will read this thread and gain an understanding of how obstructive ticket offices can be, and avoid wasting their time with them.

Would you also insist on seeing a disabled Railcard if the person travelling finds it very difficult to get to the station? Would you insist their family member/carer/friend buying the ticket brings their Railcard along? Or would you apply common sense where a disability is involved?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Do mystery shoppers still do ticket office sales?

 

[Philip]

You earlier said you applied the rules; others have questioned this and I can't see your answer to them.

Say I turn up today asking for 2 senior Railcard single tickets for one month's time, 3rd September, Formby to Matlock departing 12:13.

I obviously won't have the railcards on me (I buy tickets for family members' journeys, as well as members of groups I am travelling with; I'm obviously not going to carry someone else's Railcard).

If you can say what tickets and price you would offer that for, I would be interested to hear your answer.

In that circumstance I would check for advance tickets for the stated time, offer them if available or if not then the off peak singles and apply the discounts.

 

[43066]

But this thread is also about ways the railway can improve things for passengers. What I've put forward about post-dating railcards is one suggestion we shouldn't be too difficult to implement and which avoids this grey area/interpretation for ticket office staff in relation to checking the railcard and whether or not to issue without the railcard present, whilst also helping the customer. I'm not sure why you're so dismissive of it?

Because it’s hypothetical and isn’t relevant to your current unnecessarily pedantic approach to the situation raised upthread.

Specifically we were told to check railcards regardless of the type of ticket and in the past it has been something mystery shoppers have flagged.

In the context of the exact situation upthread, or in the context of travel that day?

You appear to have a very blinkered, black and white view of the world which perhaps colours your (I suspect incorrect) understanding of what your employer expects you to do in these situations.

 

[Berliner]

However I am no longer inconvenienced as I buy online. I am keen for all ticket types to be sold online so that ticket offices are completely redundant and I am very pleased to see matters progressing in the right direction.

I don't think it's unfair to say you're biased against ticket offices and staff so will constantly look for examples of bad service or even go out of your way to try and come up scenarios where you know service woll be denied or made challenging so you can justify your point. As you gleefully tell us frequently you buy online now anyway.

I have had bad service in various industries and I have never wished for a job role to become obsolete because of that. To wish away people's jobs with the vigour and enthusiasm you show on here is quite disgusting to be honest.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I don't think it's unfair to say you're biased against ticket offices and staff so will constantly look for examples of bad service or even go out of your way to try and come up scenarios where you know service woll be denied or made challenging so you can justify your point. As you gleefully tell us frequently you buy online now anyway.

I have had bad service in various industries and I have never wished for a job role to become obsolete because of that. To wish away people's jobs with the vigour and enthusiasm you show on here is quite disgusting to be honest.

It doesn't really matter if all ticket office staff were excellent, the role is on it's way out. Admittedly poor service is possibly speeding it up, but it's going anyway. The question is are the staff to be redeployed in customer service roles. Some seem to be going out of their way to prove they shouldn't be.

 

[Philip]

Would you also insist on seeing a disabled Railcard if the person travelling finds it very difficult to get to the station? Would you insist their family member/carer/friend buying the ticket brings their Railcard along? Or would you apply common sense where a disability is involved?

In this scenario I don’t insist on seeing the railcard.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think it's unfair to say you're biased against ticket offices and staff so will constantly look for examples of bad service or even go out of your way to try and come up scenarios where you know service woll be denied or made challenging so you can justify your point. As you gleefully tell us frequently you buy online now anyway.

Are you suggesting the experiences of myself and others are not valid concerns?

I have had bad service in various industries and I have never wished for a job role to become obsolete because of that. To wish away people's jobs with the vigour and enthusiasm you show on here is quite disgusting to be honest.

I have never wishes away any jobs; where have I said that? The modern way of working is to redeploy staff on more customer facing roles.

I do t have to wish for it; it is happening. However the actions of some ticket office staff are potentially accelerating the process.

Please withdraw your allegation and inappropriate remark.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==

In this scenario I don’t insist on seeing the railcard.

Just for disabled railcards?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==

In that circumstance I would check for advance tickets for the stated time, offer them if available or if not then the off peak singles and apply the discounts.

Are you able to do that and post here? I've given you the date and time.

 

[Runningaround]

Specifically we were told to check railcards regardless of the type of ticket and in the past it has been something mystery shoppers have flagged.

Are you a booking office employee? You only need a railcard at the point you board a train and use a railcard discounted ticket.
I don't need my dads Senior Railcard to buy a ticket for him to use next week at a booking office, online or at a TVM.
He just needs both when he travels. If I needed someone to collect my online bought Cambrian Card discounted ticket from a ticket office they don't need it with them. I do when I travel.
If my Cambrian Card runs out Sept 1st 22 and I want CC discounted tickets for the 3rd of September I can buy my tickets on the 2nd and my railcard on the 3rd. and as I can do that online and at a TVM I should be able do this at a booking office. Why should a booking office with paid and trained staff offer an inferior service to one where I do all the work myself?

 

[bramling]

Are you suggesting the experiences of myself and others are not valid concerns?

Out of interest, following these experiences did you raise your concerns to the TOC involved by means of a complaint, and if so what response did you get?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have never wishes away any jobs; where have I said that? The modern way of working is to redeploy staff on more customer facing roles.

Though to be fair I think there's no harm whatsoever in reducing headcount so long as it's done without compulsion (you can for instance quite easily replace 5 ticket windows with 5 TVMs and one member of roving staff to assist people, or maybe two if personal safety is considered an issue). Not replacing people who retire and move on is the way to do it. People who don't currently have a job have no particular right or expectation to get that job; the railway isn't a job creation scheme, it employs people because it needs certain things doing.

For booking offices, a recruitment freeze is probably the sensible first move. Then it's a slow progress to abolition as people decide to move to other roles or retire.

 

[43066]

In this scenario I don’t insist on seeing the railcard.

So why not for other types?

You are clearly making the rules up as you go along and then (incorrectly) passing your own ideas off as if they’re what you employer requires you to do!

I think you should stop digging.

 

[bramling]

Though to be fair I think there's no harm whatsoever in reducing headcount so long as it's done without compulsion (you can for instance quite easily replace 5 ticket windows with 5 TVMs and one member of roving staff to assist people, or maybe two if personal safety is considered an issue). Not replacing people who retire and move on is the way to do it. People who don't currently have a job have no particular right or expectation to get that job; the railway isn't a job creation scheme, it employs people because it needs certain things doing.

Where the industry has a habit of getting this wrong is what happens in practice is there’s a dark cloud hanging over a particular role for many years. Just using booking offices as an example, if I had a pound for every time over the last 20 years I’ve heard the words “booking offices are on the way out” then I’d be needing to open up a new savings account somewhere. This in itself breeds a terrible working atmosphere, and it doesn’t help that the industry simply doesn’t manage such changes particularly well at the best of times.

Same with guards. There’s people who post on here who clearly take great pride in delivering excellent customer service, yet have to work with a constant cloud over their role, one which in many cases probably won’t ever come to anything.

It doesn’t help that the politicians seem to nowadays encourage this, Johnson being a particularly bad offender.

 

[Philip]

Just for disabled railcards?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==


Are you able to do that and post here? I've given you the date and time.

I'm not currently at work so don't have the price to hand.

Not necessarily just disabled railcards, it depends on the circumstances and my judgement of the situation; if I see that it would cause unnecessary stress and difficulty by refusing the discount there and then (for example if someone has a mobility problem of any kind and would have to make an additional trip to go and get their railcard or extra money to buy one), then I'll give them the discount and advise them politely to make sure they have their railcard (or have bought/renewed it) on the day of travel.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'm not currently at work so don't have the price to hand.

Not necessarily just disabled railcards, it depends on the circumstances and my judgement of the situation; if I see that it would cause unnecessary stress and difficulty by refusing the discount there and then (for example if someone has a mobility problem of any kind and would have to make an additional trip to go and get their railcard or extra money to buy one), then I'll give them the discount and advise them politely to make sure they have their railcard (or have bought/renewed it) on the day of travel.

It's taken a while, but we've got there!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==

Where the industry has a habit of getting this wrong is what happens in practice is there’s a dark cloud hanging over a particular role for many years. Just using booking offices as an example, if I had a pound for every time over the last 20 years I’ve heard the words “booking offices are on the way out” then I’d be needing to open up a new savings account somewhere. This in itself breeds a terrible working atmosphere, and it doesn’t help that the industry simply doesn’t manage such changes particularly well at the best of times.

Same with guards. There’s people who post on here who clearly take great pride in delivering excellent customer service, yet have to work with a constant cloud over their role, one of which in many cases probably won’t ever come to anything.

It doesn’t help that the politicians seem to nowadays encourage this, Johnson being a particularly bad offender.

This is, sadly, very true. How long has the guards role been on the cards? BR started DOO!

 

[yorkie]

If you are in a customer facing job role that could be under threat, the best way forward would be to do your very best to provide the best possible service and where any rules are open to interpretation, to ensure the interpretation is to the benefit of the customer wherever possible.

I'm not currently at work so don't have the price to hand.

That's fine; whenever you are next in will suffice.

Not necessarily just disabled railcards, it depends on the circumstances and my judgement of the situation; if I see that it would cause unnecessary stress and difficulty by refusing the discount there and then (for example if someone has a mobility problem of any kind and would have to make an additional trip to go and get their railcard or extra money to buy one), then I'll give them the discount and advise them politely to make sure they have their railcard (or have bought/renewed it) on the day of travel.

You previously said you wouldn't do this. Have we managed to convince you to change your mind?

 

[43066]

Where the industry has a habit of getting this wrong is what happens in practice is there’s a dark cloud hanging over a particular role for many years. Just using booking offices as an example, if I had a pound for every time I’ve heard the words “booking offices are on the way out” then I’d be needing to open up a new savings account somewhere. This in itself breeds a terrible working atmosphere, and it doesn’t help that the industry simply doesn’t manage such changes particularly well at the best of times.

Same with guards. There’s people who post on here who clearly take great pride in delivering excellent customer service, yet have to work with a constant cloud over their role, one of which in many cases probably won’t ever come to anything.

Drivers too - remember the DLR proves trains don’t really need drivers and haven’t done for almost 40 years .

 

[yorkie]

Let's try not to stray too far from the thread title though

 

[Deafdoggie]

So we don't need ticket sellers, guards or drivers Makes you wonder what all these staff do all day really (I'm joking, I'm joking!!)

 

[bramling]

Drivers too - remember the DLR proves trains don’t really need drivers and haven’t done for almost 40 years .

For sure there’s a certain irony that for all these roles which were supposedly on the way out, a certain someone else whose address is Downing Street has found himself out of a job rather more quickly, and in far more disreputable circumstances.

What this all seems to come back to is that elements of the industry, especially people management, simply aren’t well managed. This seems to stem from the DFT downwards.

 

[Fokx]

If you are in a customer facing job role that could be under threat, the best way forward would be to do your very best to provide the best possible service and where any rules are open to interpretation, to ensure the interpretation is to the benefit of the customer wherever possible.

It is better customer service to refuse someone a railcard discounted ticket on the basis that they don’t have it in their possession than it is for said passenger to once again forget their railcard, board a train and end up with a chunky penalty fare.

I had to deal with quite an agitated passenger yesterday who boarded my train with an expired railcard because he wasn’t checked before boarding by gateline staff at a non-barriered station or by the ticket office.

 

[Ken H]

You, to be fair, are talking about upset customers, which to be fair are part of the job.

You however mentioned "abuse" earlier, and abuse is not being upset. There is a difference between someone being upset or annoyed, and perhaps raising their voice a little, to someone coming at you with a broken bottle. The former is something you can control and manage, the latter is not and that sort of behaviour is still not unusual on the railway.

I had a colleague, who is the most sweet lady you can imagine, who was working a train the opposite way to me.

She sold a lady travelling with her 4 year old daughter a slightly wrong ticket and when the matter was raised, before she had a chance to do anything, she was grabbed, put in a headlock and beaten black and blue to the point it took 4 or 5 passengers and then the same number of police officers to drag this person off her. She now lives with PTSD, the perpetrator claimed the mental health card when it went to court and got a smack on the wrist and still uses the train to this day.

Don't ever make the mistake of thinking your skills are enough to prevent you from getting hurt, whoever you are, if you come across the wrong person.

Why on earth wasnt that person banned from the railway? Any other place where you behave like that you get a life ban.

 

[Philip]

You previously said you wouldn't do this. Have we managed to convince you to change your mind?

I've used this approach numerous times, admittedly more so in recent years. The reality is there are areas I can improve in my job (and perhaps the issue of applying railcard discounts is one of them) but in other ways I (and my colleagues) try our best to get good deals for the customer and I don't appreciate some of the responses in this thread which have annoyed me into replying in a way that might come across that is very black and white/obstructive.

 

[Fokx]

Do mystery shoppers still do ticket office sales?

Now falls under service quality assessments at most TOC’s

 

[bramling]

If you are in a customer facing job role that could be under threat, the best way forward would be to do your very best to provide the best possible service

Unfortunately I’m not sure this necessarily holds true. From a practical point of view one is probably best to look for a different job, and in the meantime no real need to bother going any extra miles in the current one.

It’s very inherent in the rail industry that it doesn’t matter how wonderful someone may be in their own role and/or location, if the wind is blowing the wrong way this will count for nothing. Again, poor management.

Closing booking offices doesn’t resolve the problem of poor management. As 43066 alluded to elsewhere, the outcome will probably simply be STM Security marauding around the booking hall, and I’m not sure that’s a desirable situation either.