Does ‘the railway’ enjoy making things difficult for all its users?

[Philip]

Railcard discounst not being avaailble at a ticket office unless the railcard and its owner are both present. This meant that I was unable to buy a ticket in advancefor my 85 year old grandmother, who thus had to make a special trip into town for the purpose. (THis was in 1981, when online purcahses were not possible. Bizarrely, the rule still applies to tickest bought at ticket offices, although telesales and online sales don't require a railcard to be present (or even exist at the time of purchase - I bought an advance ticket with an over-60 discount when I was still 59).

To offer an alternative but similar scenario; you wouldn't expect a supermarket checkout operator to take your word for it if you stated that you had a clubcard without showing evidence of it, so why is it wrong that ticket offices require evidence of the railcard before applying the discount?

Perhaps the railway can make things difficult for passengers, but equally some passengers take the railway for granted and can be rude to staff, I would guess more so than in other retail/transport industries, so it works both ways.

 

[Deafdoggie]

To offer an alternative but similar scenario; you wouldn't expect a supermarket checkout operator to take your word for it if you stated that you had a clubcard without showing evidence of it, so why is it wrong that ticket offices require evidence of the railcard before applying the discount?

Perhaps the railway can make things difficult for passengers, but equally some passengers take the railway for granted and can be rude to staff, I would guess more so than in other retail/transport industries, so it works both ways.

But they do! Forget your club card, no problem, keep the receipt and they're added next time. You try getting a railcard discount added afterwards!

 

[3141]

But they do! Forget your club card, no problem, keep the receipt and they're added next time. You try getting a railcard discount added afterwards!

That isn't the railway making it difficult for passengers. It's the passenger making it difficult for him/herself. If the requirement to get a 33% discount is that you should show your railcard at the booking office, and you forget to bring it, I see no reason why the railway should be expected to do anything more on your behalf. If you'd forgotten your wallet you wouldn't expect the railway to issue a ticket and say "Never mind, just pay us the next time you're passing".

 

[Fokx]

But they do! Forget your club card, no problem, keep the receipt and they're added next time. You try getting a railcard discount added afterwards!

That’s called the forgotten railcard scheme, already exists.

 

[JamesT]

That isn't the railway making it difficult for passengers. It's the passenger making it difficult for him/herself. If the requirement to get a 33% discount is that you should show your railcard at the booking office, and you forget to bring it, I see no reason why the railway should be expected to do anything more on your behalf. If you'd forgotten your wallet you wouldn't expect the railway to issue a ticket and say "Never mind, just pay us the next time you're passing".

But it's a requirement only on one way of buying tickets. Buying from a TVM, or online has no such requirement to prove possession of a railcard.
You still need to have the railcard to travel with the tickets you've bought, so relaxing the requirement at the booking office isn't making it a complete free-for-all.

 

[Llandudno]

But it's a requirement only on one way of buying tickets. Buying from a TVM, or online has no such requirement to prove possession of a railcard.
You still need to have the railcard to travel with the tickets you've bought, so relaxing the requirement at the booking office isn't making it a complete free-for-all.

Probably irrelevant soon if most of the ticket offices get closed down…

 

[AM9]

But it's a requirement only on one way of buying tickets. Buying from a TVM, or online has no such requirement to prove possession of a railcard.
You still need to have the railcard to travel with the tickets you've bought, so relaxing the requirement at the booking office isn't making it a complete free-for-all.

It's probably only applied at ticket offices because:
a) when the first railcards were introduced, almost all tickets were acquired that way
b) there wasn't (and probably isn't even now) a reliable way of verifying that the purchaser has a valid railcard.
As Llandudno says, once ticket offices go, there won't be any easy way of doing so, but maybe then, online and TVM purchases may require a tickbox response that the purchaser understands the requirement to carry a valid railcard, and by confirming that, effectively commits to carrying it on the journey to avoid a penalty.

 

[Statto]

The railcard to be shown when buying tickets at the ticket office, as well as traveling with a railcard (& showing a railcard when asked to do so) on a railcard discounted ticket rules, has been there since the days of British Rail, otherwise you know some people will buy & travel fraudulently on a railcard discounted ticket, even though they don't have a railcard.

 

[Deerfold]

The railcard to be shown when buying tickets at the ticket office, as well as traveling with a railcard (& showing a railcard when asked to do so) on a railcard discounted ticket rules, has been there since the days of British Rail, otherwise you know some people will buy & travel fraudulently on a railcard discounted ticket, even though they don't have a railcard.

And so they'll just use the TVM or buy online instead. Does not allowing them to be sold by a person prevent much fraud?

 

[Deafdoggie]

That isn't the railway making it difficult for passengers. It's the passenger making it difficult for him/herself. If the requirement to get a 33% discount is that you should show your railcard at the booking office, and you forget to bring it, I see no reason why the railway should be expected to do anything more on your behalf. If you'd forgotten your wallet you wouldn't expect the railway to issue a ticket and say "Never mind, just pay us the next time you're passing".

My point was in relation to the previous post. In the case of Railcards I think the railway has the right approach

 

[Deerfold]

My point was in relation to the previous post. In the case of Railcards I think the railway has the right approach

To require the passenger to prove they have one, but only if bought at a station?

 

[Agent_Squash]

In an ideal world you’d enter your railcard number at checkout and then the system would display the photo ID on the mobile device used to check tickets.

 

[ComUtoR]

I bought an advance ticket with an over-60 discount when I was still 59).

Was the ticket for you ?

If so, wouldn't that be considered ticket fraud ? You were 59, so were not entitled to an over 60s discount.

If a thing that highlights how easy it is to defraud the ticketing system when there are no checks in place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was the ticket for you ?

If so, wouldn't that be considered ticket fraud ? You were 59, so were not entitled to an over 60s discount.

If a thing that highlights how easy it is to defraud the ticketing system when there are no checks in place.

I'd not call that fraud if the ticket was purchased for travel after the poster's 60th birthday. It's similarly not fraudulent to buy a Railcard discounted ticket when one doesn't hold a Railcard (give or take that some booking offices won't sell it), provided that matter is corrected before the actual date of travel.

By contrast it would be fraudulent to buy a child ticket while aged 15 and 364 days with the intention of using it on the 16th birthday. That's generally how the railway sees things.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Was the ticket for you ?

If so, wouldn't that be considered ticket fraud ? You were 59, so were not entitled to an over 60s discount.

If a thing that highlights how easy it is to defraud the ticketing system when there are no checks in place.

And this post is the perfect example of why the railway is seen as unfriendly to passengers.

Imagine I booked an advance on a 16-25 for a trip down to London on my 16th birthday. I then bought the railcard on my 16th birthday digitally, so my ticket was perfectly valid.

And yet somehow in practice this is viewed as worse than the millions of sixth formers who go back in time as soon as they board public transportation to get child price tickets.

 

[Scott1]

And so they'll just use the TVM or buy online instead. Does not allowing them to be sold by a person prevent much fraud?

I don't kkow if it ever got much steam, but there was an idea to introduce scanning of railcards to get the discount at TVMs and a requirement to link the railcard for online purchases. I suspect its another idea that didn't get far.

Its the myriad of ticket options you get. Off peak return, anytime day return, semi flex return, super off peak return etc. Then the routings that affect ticket price, want to go via Reading rather than Salisbury, much more expensive for example.

Even the TOCs have asked DfT to simply the fares system. Its agreed by pretty much everyone involved it is far too complex, but it never gets far because as soon as you simply the fares someone loses out, for example if you scrapped all rover type tickets. I don't think anyone is happy with the current fares structure.

 

[ComUtoR]

And this post is the perfect example of why the railway is seen as unfriendly to passengers.

It's the railway protecting itself from fraud.

Imagine I booked an advance on a 16-25 for a trip down to London on my 16th birthday. I then bought the railcard on my 16th birthday digitally, so my ticket was perfectly valid.
.

By contrast it would be fraudulent to buy a child ticket while aged 15 and 364 days with the intention of using it on the 16th birthday. That's generally how the railway sees things.

I think those two examples show how stupidly complex the ticketing system is. I would say that you should be able to buy any ticket you want, at any time. I do find it bizarre that it's restricted so much.

However, the system does need to protect itself. A direct consequence of the above is that you are able to buy a discounted ticket you are not entitled to. Granted, the ticket may be for someone else.

I would like to see a balance maintained between the two.

 

[philthetube]

every time two people want to sit together on a train with different railcards , if for any reason one or both needs to buy from a ticket office this is difficult unless they arrange to go to the same station at the same time to buy tickets.

 

[PeterC]

every time two people want to sit together on a train with different railcards , if for any reason one or both needs to buy from a ticket office this is difficult unless they arrange to go to the same station at the same time to buy tickets.

I have made 2 round trips recently with SWMBO where tickets were bought seperately and we sat together on a total of 9 trains with no problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

every time two people want to sit together on a train with different railcards , if for any reason one or both needs to buy from a ticket office this is difficult unless they arrange to go to the same station at the same time to buy tickets.

Seat selectors provide an effective solution to this problem. The forthcoming GBR central sales site, app and any new TVMs really need to have one for all reservable trains.

 

[Runningaround]

This thread is rather interesting.

PRIV Oyster

Hi is anyone able to give the latest advice on where best to get a NR only Priv discount on your Oyster card? E.g. can this now be done at Crossrail stations?

www.railforums.co.uk

It appears to be a good example of how the railway seems to sometimes enjoy making things difficult for its users.

In this example, even those who serve it.

So does ‘the railway’ enjoy making things difficult for its users?

If it makes it difficult for it's own staff who are also responsible for how it's run and meant to understand the rules then what chance have the passengers got, do they fine and penalise it's own teach them a lesson?

 

[AM9]

It's the railway protecting itself from fraud.




I think those two examples show how stupidly complex the ticketing system is. I would say that you should be able to buy any ticket you want, at any time. I do find it bizarre that it's restricted so much.

However, the system does need to protect itself. A direct consequence of the above is that you are able to buy a discounted ticket you are not entitled to. Granted, the ticket may be for someone else.

I would like to see a balance maintained between the two.

I don't think that there's a conflict with the two edge cases given in post #47:
in the first, the ticket was for the first day that the 16-25 ticket was valid, and provided there wasn't a hiccup in getting the 16-25 digital version of the railcard on the day, travel would be compliant with the rules as expected.
in the second case, when the ticket was bought is irrelevant, travelling on the day would not be allowed because the passenger was no longer eligible for a child fare.
There are many inconsistencies in the UK rail ticketing structure, but using those two examples to demonstrate 'stupid complexity' is a false dichotomy.

 

[Deerfold]

It's the railway protecting itself from fraud.

Is it?

I could see your reasoning, if on being refused a sale at a ticket office I couldn't walk across to the ticket machine or loas up an app on my phone and buy exactly the same ticket without proving I had a railcard.

After not travelling much for a few months our last tickets to London were bought 6 weeks before I bought the Railcard that we needed to accompany them. How would the railway have been protected if I hadn't been allowed to buy them?

 

[ComUtoR]

Is it?

I could see your reasoning, if on being refused a sale at a ticket office I couldn't walk across to the ticket machine or loas up an app on my phone and buy exactly the same ticket without proving I had a railcard.

Yes, it's silly but it's because computers generally don't care. It's a machine that programmed to provide the basic function within its own limitations.

How would the railway have been protected if I hadn't been allowed to buy them?

You could have easily not bought the Railcard.

I firmly believe that most people are honest. It's unfortunate that many aren't.

It's too easy to walk up to any TVM and apply a ticket discount and then chance your luck. It's probably the best way to scam a ticket. When I was younger.. I'd stick 5p in a permit to travel machine knowing that if I got caught I'd effectively 'get away with it'

By having a person in a ticket office and forcing someone to show a Railcard it does prevent ticket abuse, or at least mitigate against it.

I don't like it, but I understand it.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes, it's silly but it's because computers generally don't care. It's a machine that programmed to provide the basic function within its own limitations.

It's silly. And therefore isn't achieving anything. It doesn't do someone buying a ticket without having a Railcard, it just inconveniences those wanting to use a ticket office who don't have the card with them.

You could have easily not bought the Railcard.

I firmly believe that most people are honest. It's unfortunate that many aren't.

It's too easy to walk up to any TVM and apply a ticket discount and then chance your luck. It's probably the best way to scam a ticket. When I was younger.. I'd stick 5p in a permit to travel machine knowing that if I got caught I'd effectively 'get away with it'

By having a person in a ticket office and forcing someone to show a Railcard it does prevent ticket abuse, or at least mitigate against it.

I don't like it, but I understand it.

I could have not bought the Railcard, but then that would have been detected when our tickets were checked - a much better way of protecting the railway.

Unless you're doing the same through other sales channels, requiring a Railcard only at ticket offices achieves nothing.

 

[philthetube]

I have made 2 round trips recently with SWMBO where tickets were bought seperately and we sat together on a total of 9 trains with no problem.

?

 

[Bletchleyite]

?

SWMBO is a common term for "she who must be obeyed", i.e. the wife.

 

[david1212]

I feel like part of the problem stems from railways often being treated as a business first and a public service second (not that other public services are free from this of course), I'm not sure what to expect from GBR when it's eventually up and running but hopefully a degree of standardisation will help.

Railways are a business. But I think that a big problem is that many managers seem to think that passengers exist for the convenience of railways, not vice versa.

If the railways were 100% private business, or even close to with limited subsidy just for the very rural routes, the approach / attitude of running trains and charging prices that overall generate a worthwhile profit would have to prevail.
However given the level of public funding pre-March 2020 the the approach / attitude of public service ought to be dominant.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Was the ticket for you ?

If so, wouldn't that be considered ticket fraud ? You were 59, so were not entitled to an over 60s discount.

If a thing that highlights how easy it is to defraud the ticketing system when there are no checks in place.

The key word in my statement was "advance". I would not have been able to buy that ticket after I turned 60 as it would have sold out. (As it happened my over-60 Railcard had already arrived when i made the booking, albeit it was not yet valid, but it would become valid before the date of the ticket.

 

[philthetube]

?

sorry, can't get rid of this.