Doctored railcard on Avanti West Coast

[ElatedOne9012]

Hi, new to the forum and have looked at many previous posts but I haven’t seen too much for Avanti.

I very idiotically, being a broke student, decided to doctor the expiry date on my railcard when it ran out in 2023, and I have been using it since then.

Today, boarding at Euston station on a train to Edinburgh, it was scanned for the first time ever and caught, I had to pay for a ticket then and there, full price, and the train person asked for pictures of the doctored railcard and pictures of my ID, she said this would be sent to the fraud team and that I would hear from them. I didn’t receive any further confirmation on the spot, just that I would hear from them, not if it would be post or email. I am assuming it will be post as they have my address from my driving license.

I of course feel incredibly stupid for doing this, and although I have had it doctored for about two years, I have actually only used it a handful of times for Avanti, it has however unfortunately been for the long journey from Edinburgh to Euston, or Glasgow to Euston.

I did however use it a few times on ScotRail as well.

I have been incredibly stressed since this interaction and the anxiety is eating me up, im just starting a career in finance so of course want to avoid a criminal record as much as possible.

I guess my first question is, will Avanti only look into it being used on their lines? Or will they also be able to look at ScotRail?

As this has been for an extended period of time, what’s the likely hood of them accepting a settlement? I know it might be a hefty fee but I’m honestly willing to pay anything to keep it out of the courts.

Also, how long will it be until I get that initial letter from them, and will it most likely be a letter or email?

I have already bought a new railcard to show I will not be doing this again, it’s a 16-25 railcard and I am 25 this year so this is my last chance to renew anyway.

I’m really looking for any advice possible and hopefully a little reassurance that this won’t need to go to court.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think you should prepare yourself for this one potentially being expensive. Avanti are likely to take an extremely dim view of someone who has been using a forged railcard for two years to use a discount they were entitled to but weren't willing to pay £30 for.

Avanti are likely to request information from retailers about what tickets you've bought in the past few years so they are likely to discover the other occasions that you've used tickets whilst not holding a valid discount.

They may be amenable to settling but it will likely be expensive. I would expect they'll be requesting the full single, undiscounted fare, for any journeys you've made since the railcard expired as well as some sort of contribution towards their costs in dealing with the matter. Depending on how much you've travelled and where that could become a four or possibly even five figure sum. They are unlikely to agree to a payment plan.

It is also quite possible that they may seek to prosecute. That may well come down to what they can evidence. They've caught you once using a doctored railcard to travel so they have a fairly slam dunk case for a prosecution for fare evasion (possibly even a fraud act prosecution but that would be unusual). But they may decide to simply settle as that will likely net more financial reward than a prosecution.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I guess my first question is, will Avanti only look into it being used on their lines? Or will they also be able to look at ScotRail?

You need to tell the forum how you have been buying tickets. If you used one of the online sites such as Trainline, then Big Brother was watching your ticket purchasing habits. The ToC that first detected the use of an expired railcard would usually act for all the others.

Be warned that if or hopefully when they offer an out of court settlement, they will ask for the full Anytime Single price for each journey.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't say this to scare you, but this is one case where there could be a legitimate fear of a Fraud Act prosecution. Doctoring a railcard goes beyond forgetting or "forgetting" to buy one. It is a pre-meditated act and it is easily proven as a pre-meditated act. They've stopped you when using it, so they can prove that aspect too.

On that basis, I would expect any settlement to be expensive. You can't really do much until you get the correspondence from Avanti, so you'll just have to wait. But you can expect Avanti to be requesting the full Anytime fare for any occasions where it appears, from your ticketing history, that you purchased a ticket with a railcard discount. I don't think that is fair- assuming you were entitled to purchase a railcard, the actual loss to the railway is just the cost of the railcard- but they're the ones holding the whip hand. Depends on how much you really want to keep it out of court.

All to save sixty quid.

 

[Egg Centric]

I have already bought a new railcard to show I will not be doing this again, it’s a 16-25 railcard and I am 25 this year so this is my last chance to renew anyway.

You mention you are a student - FYI you can continue to renew it so long as you remain in full time education. If not a 26-30 railcard exists. Some very minor consolation perhaps.

 

[ElatedOne9012]

I think you should prepare yourself for this one potentially being expensive. Avanti are likely to take an extremely dim view of someone who has been using a forged railcard for two years to use a discount they were entitled to but weren't willing to pay £30 for.

Avanti are likely to request information from retailers about what tickets you've bought in the past few years so they are likely to discover the other occasions that you've used tickets whilst not holding a valid discount.

They may be amenable to settling but it will likely be expensive. I would expect they'll be requesting the full single, undiscounted fare, for any journeys you've made since the railcard expired as well as some sort of contribution towards their costs in dealing with the matter. Depending on how much you've travelled and where that could become a four or possibly even five figure sum. They are unlikely to agree to a payment plan.

It is also quite possible that they may seek to prosecute. That may well come down to what they can evidence. They've caught you once using a doctored railcard to travel so they have a fairly slam dunk case for a prosecution for fare evasion (possibly even a fraud act prosecution but that would be unusual). But they may decide to simply settle as that will likely net more financial reward than a prosecution.

So I only actually travelled with Avanti about five times in those two years and these tickets ranged from 50-120 so I can see it building up but not to an insane amount unless they add additional charges to that.

With using ScotRail though, are they likely to contact ScotRail and let them know or just focus on getting their own money?

 

[ElatedOne9012]

You need to tell the forum how you have been buying tickets. If you used one of the online sites such as Trainline, then Big Brother was watching your ticket purchasing habits. The ToC that first detected the use of an expired railcard would usually act for all the others.

Be warned that if or hopefully when they offer an out of court settlement, they will ask for the full Anytime Single price for each journey.

I was using trainline and ScotRail, but I’ve had nothing from them about this since it expired, this is the first instance of it being brought up. But only trainline for Avanti tickets I believe.

 

[ainsworth74]

So I only actually travelled with Avanti about five times in those two years and these tickets ranged from 50-120 so I can see it building up but not to an insane amount unless they add additional charges to that.

With using ScotRail though, are they likely to contact ScotRail and let them know or just focus on getting their own money?

There's no reason, to my knowledge, that Avanti couldn't act on ScotRail's behalf.

 

[ElatedOne9012]

I don't say this to scare you, but this is one case where there could be a legitimate fear of a Fraud Act prosecution. Doctoring a railcard goes beyond forgetting or "forgetting" to buy one. It is a pre-meditated act and it is easily proven as a pre-meditated act. They've stopped you when using it, so they can prove that aspect too.

On that basis, I would expect any settlement to be expensive. You can't really do much until you get the correspondence from Avanti, so you'll just have to wait. But you can expect Avanti to be requesting the full Anytime fare for any occasions where it appears, from your ticketing history, that you purchased a ticket with a railcard discount. I don't think that is fair- assuming you were entitled to purchase a railcard, the actual loss to the railway is just the cost of the railcard- but they're the ones holding the whip hand. Depends on how much you really want to keep it out of court.

All to save sixty quid.

It was a very stupid decision, but it was in a moment of my life where I would go days without buying food cause I couldn’t afford it and had to save my money for my train tickets into uni, so I would literally do anything to save more money. I know it was incredibly stupid and I should have just taken a little extra hit at the time.

At this moment, everything has only just starting coming together in life. So I’m willing to make it work and get any amount they request for a settlement paid, I’m just scared because of the situation they might not even consider one, and if there’s anything I can do once correspondence arrives to ensure I can push for a settlement.

I’ve seen there’s solicitors online that you pay a small fortune for them to go to the train-lines and get a settlement for you, what is known about these? And are they worth that extra hit?

 

[ElatedOne9012]

There's no reason, to my knowledge, that Avanti couldn't act on ScotRail's behalf.

Even thought it is a completely different rail service? They would still claim their lost fare as their own?

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi, non-expert here.

In terms of settling out of court, my understanding is that rail companies often prefer to reach a settlement and keep all of the money rather than to go to the trouble and expense of a court case where they would receive less.

I'm sure the forum pros will tell you if this is likely in your case.

 

[WesternLancer]

Even thought it is a completely different rail service? They would still claim their lost fare as their own?

All the fares go to the government basically. These companies are just contractors for groups of routes.

each operator pursues evasion on behalf of all the others. They will check your online purchase history where your digital fingerprints will have left an easy record. This is all gdpr exempt as it’s a criminal investigation.

Do not delete your on line accounts as they can still access them but it makes you look worse and actually puts you at a disadvantage if you do so.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

So I only actually travelled with Avanti about five times in those two years and these tickets ranged from 50-120 so I can see it building up but not to an insane amount unless they add additional charges to that.

They are likely to ask for the ticket price of an "Anytime Single" for each leg. Euston to Glasgow is now priced at more than £ 200.

 

[AlterEgo]

Even thought it is a completely different rail service? They would still claim their lost fare as their own?

Yes. They can prosecute you for it; train companies act on behalf of one another. The way many fares are set, multiple operators get the revenue anyway, so this makes it simpler.

You will just have to wait and see what Avanti will do. In the meantime I would say no more about this if I were you.

 

[WesternLancer]

It was a very stupid decision, but it was in a moment of my life where I would go days without buying food cause I couldn’t afford it and had to save my money for my train tickets into uni, so I would literally do anything to save more money. I know it was incredibly stupid and I should have just taken a little extra hit at the time.

At this moment, everything has only just starting coming together in life. So I’m willing to make it work and get any amount they request for a settlement paid, I’m just scared because of the situation they might not even consider one, and if there’s anything I can do once correspondence arrives to ensure I can push for a settlement.

I’ve seen there’s solicitors online that you pay a small fortune for them to go to the train-lines and get a settlement for you, what is known about these? And are they worth that extra hit?

We can advise you about solicitor options etc but at this stage you probably need to wait for Avanti to write to you and see what they say. Receiving that letter or e mail is vital to avoiding the court route so keep an eye on spam too.

I can see you’re getting some ‘robust comment’ about the severity of the error of judgment you made but I’m sure the same people here will give you solid advice on how to try and achieve the least worst outcome for this.

Obviously don’t underestimate the seriousness of the situation you are in, but don’t panic either. You will get good advice here.

 

[John R]

So I only actually travelled with Avanti about five times in those two years and these tickets ranged from 50-120 so I can see it building up but not to an insane amount unless they add additional charges to that.

With using ScotRail though, are they likely to contact ScotRail and let them know or just focus on getting their own money?

If those are 5 return trips, then assume around £400 for each, so that's £2k for starters. (The fares will be calculated based on those in force on the date of travel, so slightly less, but not materially so.)

And yes, if they look at your history then it's almost certain they will include the Scotrail tickets too.

 

[WesternLancer]

At this stage I would advise the op to do some careful preparation by making a private list of all thier rail ticket purchases with the altered railcard from the date of its genuine expiry.

Include every ticket for every journey that can be identified as purchased from any on line retailer for travel on any train company service.

Do this thoroughly now while waiting to see what Avanti say to you.

Keep the details for your own private reference. No need to share them here.

Count a return journey as two single trips.

While compiling the list you may as well note what you did pay though that isn’t likely to form part of any settlement calculation. Note the type of ticket it was too if easy to do eg off peak/ Advance etc.

 

[John R]

Brfares.com is a useful resource to easily get the Anytime Single fare between any two stations. Attached is an example for London to Glasgow. (Note there are two options here - if in doubt choose the "Any Permitted" option, but obviously there's nothing in the fare difference in this case.) If nothing else, it should enable the OP to get a reasonable handle on the total amount that they may be looking at.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi, new to the forum and have looked at many previous posts but I haven’t seen too much for Avanti.

I very idiotically, being a broke student, decided to doctor the expiry date on my railcard when it ran out in 2023, and I have been using it since then.

Today, boarding at Euston station on a train to Edinburgh, it was scanned for the first time ever and caught, I had to pay for a ticket then and there, full price, and the train person asked for pictures of the doctored railcard and pictures of my ID, she said this would be sent to the fraud team and that I would hear from them. I didn’t receive any further confirmation on the spot, just that I would hear from them, not if it would be post or email. I am assuming it will be post as they have my address from my driving license.

I of course feel incredibly stupid for doing this, and although I have had it doctored for about two years, I have actually only used it a handful of times for Avanti, it has however unfortunately been for the long journey from Edinburgh to Euston, or Glasgow to Euston.

I did however use it a few times on ScotRail as well.

I have been incredibly stressed since this interaction and the anxiety is eating me up, im just starting a career in finance so of course want to avoid a criminal record as much as possible.

I guess my first question is, will Avanti only look into it being used on their lines? Or will they also be able to look at ScotRail?

As this has been for an extended period of time, what’s the likely hood of them accepting a settlement? I know it might be a hefty fee but I’m honestly willing to pay anything to keep it out of the courts.

Also, how long will it be until I get that initial letter from them, and will it most likely be a letter or email?

I have already bought a new railcard to show I will not be doing this again, it’s a 16-25 railcard and I am 25 this year so this is my last chance to renew anyway.

I’m really looking for any advice possible and hopefully a little reassurance that this won’t need to go to court.

I certainly did things when I was a skint student that I’d never do now that I can see the consequences of such things in a wider context. I’m sure from your post you realise the severity of your error of judgement here.

Starting a career in finance that wider context is your current and future earning potential without the prospect of some sort of evasion conviction on your record, as you mention.

So another thing you could weigh up is possibly using a solicitor specialising in fare evasion work to help you seek a settlement out of court (which has to be your objective) if you were not confident of your ability to achieve that yourself with advice from here. There are suitable firms that get mentioned on here.

That won’t be cheap and they can’t 100% gaurantee success presumably, but their fee when set against earnings potentially lost is probably the way to weigh up the decision about that.