Do you think providing a good affordable service would stop evasion?

[Wolfie]

Is it? When I'm on one I usually hear enough "beeps" on boarding for each person walking past the driver.

It takes a higher level of brazenness to walk past a member of staff who is actively interested* in whether you've paid. Some people certainly do, but it's psychologically harder than fare dodging on an ungated DOO train where nobody will even slightly challenge you except random inspections once an eternity.

* To the extent that London bus drivers are actively interested in anything...

A fair few board through the middle doors...

 

[Thebaz]

Is it? When I'm on one I usually hear enough "beeps" on boarding for each person walking past the driver.

It takes a higher level of brazenness to walk past a member of staff who is actively interested* in whether you've paid. Some people certainly do, but it's psychologically harder than fare dodging on an ungated DOO train where nobody will even slightly challenge you except random inspections once an eternity.

* To the extent that London bus drivers are actively interested in anything...

You should try the buses in Croydon. People just brazenly don't pay or they beg the driver to let them on 'for just a couple of stops'. The drivers, not wanting any trouble, just stare straight ahead.

 

[etr221]

A fairly relevant YouTube piece I came across: Why There's No Turnstile Jumping in Vienna "A short look at Vienna's refreshingly turnstileless public transport"

One question to consider is what we mean by fare evasion: while there are those who did not pay the fare for the journey they intended to make, with the intent to not pay it, which is very definitely fare evasion; there are also those who intend to pay for the journey they intend to make, but, for all sorts of reasons, don't pay for the journey that they do - to what extent is this fare evasion?

I think to cut fare evasion a culture change is required - both with society, that the social inclusion, honesty and good citizenship that include not fare evading and also very much else become the norm; and on the railway, to 'love' its passengers, providing good service in quality and value terms, so that of course they can pay their correct fare without any excuse, so that everybody who needs to know, knows they have, and that when things go wrong, so they don't make their intended journey, its not a problem - so that passengers will 'love' the railway back, and pay their correct fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A fairly relevant YouTube piece I came across: Why There's No Turnstile Jumping in Vienna

There is, though. Schwarzfahren, literally "black travel" (as in the "black market" I guess), is a national sport of at least Germany and I'm sure Austria as well.

The only way to stop the "pay when challenged" brigade is to provide that challenge.

 

[yorkie]

A fairly relevant YouTube piece I came across: Why There's No Turnstile Jumping in Vienna
...

Thanks for posting the video, but please don't forget to add a text alternative (it can just be a relevant paragraph or two; a description/summary or an extract from part of the transcript)

There is, though. Schwarzfahren, literally "black travel" (as in the "black market" I guess), is a national sport of at least Germany and I'm sure Austria as well.

The video states 1.9% of passengers were found without a ticket in 2019; do you dispute that, and if so, what do you state the figure is, and do you have a source for this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The video states 1.9% of passengers were found without a ticket in 2019; do you dispute that, and if so, what do you state the figure is, and do you have a source for this?

I'm just going off the title of the video - I can't really watch one in work even on my lunch

The title states no turnstile jumping - 1.9% of people fare dodging is very much more than none when you consider that there'll be millions of journeys per year.

In fact here you go:

Annual public transportation ridership in Vienna, Austria 2020| Statista

The annual number of passengers transported by the public transport network (subway, tram, and buses) in Vienna experienced a constant increase between 2013 and 2018, peaking at almost *** million passengers in 2018.

www.statista.com

The annual number of passengers transported by the public transport network (subway, tram, and buses) in Vienna experienced a constant increase between 2013 and 2018, peaking at almost 966 million passengers in 2018. Amid the COVID-19 pandemic, the ridership of the public transportation in the Austrian capital dropped by 40 percent, reaching 574 million in 2020.

Using that figure, there'll have been 18,354,000 fare-dodges (and that's the ones that were caught in what is at least in part a non-gated system) in 2018. That's not small. I'd be interested to see similar figures for London.

 

[renegademaster]

Is it? When I'm on one I usually hear enough "beeps" on boarding for each person walking past the driver.

It takes a higher level of brazenness to walk past a member of staff who is actively interested* in whether you've paid. Some people certainly do, but it's psychologically harder than fare dodging on an ungated DOO train where nobody will even slightly challenge you except random inspections once an eternity.

* To the extent that London bus drivers are actively interested in anything...

Most people are good but if someone walks past a bus driver without tapping it's rare for them do anything especially if its busy. And even the most adamant driver can't write out fines, just tell them to get off. You do get RPIs on TFL busses but it's pretty rare

 

[yorkie]

I'm just going off the title of the video - I can't really watch one in work even on my lunch

I suspected as much This is one of the reasons why forum rules require a text alternative to be provided; hopefully the post will be edited in due course.

The title states no turnstile jumping - 1.9% of people fare dodging is very much more than none when you consider that there'll be millions of journeys per year.

There are no turnstyles; the purpose of the video is that fare evasion is lower than in some places where turnstiles are in operation.

No-one is claiming that 1.9% is zero.

In fact here you go:

Annual public transportation ridership in Vienna, Austria 2020| Statista

The annual number of passengers transported by the public transport network (subway, tram, and buses) in Vienna experienced a constant increase between 2013 and 2018, peaking at almost *** million passengers in 2018.

www.statista.com

Using that figure, there'll have been 18,354,000 fare-dodges (and that's the ones that were caught in what is at least in part a non-gated system) in 2018. That's not small. I'd be interested to see similar figures for London.

By all means argue 1.9% fare evasion (i.e. 98.1% of people not evading the fare; presumably people who lost tickets are also counted as "evaders") is "not small", but I'd be very surprised if you can get it much lower, in busy urban areas, without disproportinate costs. I don't know the stats for Paris, but I'd be shocked if it wasn't many times higher, based on a few casual observations, and also based on this 2016 article:

Paris declares new war on legion of train fare dodgers

Paris transport authorities have launched a new campaign to fight fraud, after a new report has revealed huge annual losses thanks to fare evaders.

www.thelocal.fr

The auditors revealed that 8.9 percent of passengers weren't paying the correct fare (or indeed weren't paying at all), which compares with a rate of 1 to 2 percent in cities like London, New York, and Brussels.

It sounds like it's almost unavoidable for a leve of around 1 to 2% but some places have far higher rates.

But context is important; when you suggest fare evasion levels are high (by saying they are "not small") when over 98% of people are paying, people who read your post out of context may get a very different impression compared to the actual reality.

 

[Bletchleyite]

By all means argue 1.9% fare evasion (i.e. 98.1% of people not evading the fare; presumably people who lost tickets are also counted as "evaders") is "not small", but I'd be very surprised if you can get it much lower, in busy urban areas, without disproportinate costs. I don't know the stats for Paris, but I'd be shocked if it wasn't many times higher, based on a few casual observations, and also based on this 2016 article:

Paris declares new war on legion of train fare dodgers

Paris transport authorities have launched a new campaign to fight fraud, after a new report has revealed huge annual losses thanks to fare evaders.

www.thelocal.fr

I'd agree Paris is likely to be much higher - but Paris is rather a hotbed of petty crime at times, particularly on the Metro. I'd not have my phone and wallet in an outside pocket on the Paris Metro but I do on the Tube all the time.

A comparison with London would be interesting. Though of course London is very staff-heavy and near-fully gated.

 

[Belperpete]

As has already been said, the fact that people are prepared to avoid paying bus fares of a couple of quid - how cheap would train fares have to be?

The big problem is that people think that they can get away with it. There is very little publicity given to those who are caught, and the press only seem to report the big cases. Someone gets away with it once, so they do it again, and again, and again.....

 

[AlbertBeale]

Actually, I think that a lot of people who do not consider themselves dishonest (and would be upset at a suggestion that they are) are quite happy to take advantage of and create opportunities to avoid paying businesses for goods and services because "it doesn't hurt anyone".

Similarly, there are lots of people driving cars in London who consider themselves law-abiding, but break traffic rules almost non-stop. They just don't see what's done in a car as a "real" crime. They don't like it when, as I cycle around London every day, I loudly accuse many of them of being criminals when they clearly break a law. Maybe this has a parallel in the idea that not paying a fare is somehow "different" from nicking something from a shelf in a shop.