Do you notice how a Driver drives?

[craigybagel]

I can't speak for other drivers here, but I know my own driving style very much depends on the circumstances. Give me a 75mph unit on a 100mph diagram, or a big delay along the route, and I'm going to get to full power from a standing start a lot quicker than if we're on time. I'll still work through the notches as per our PDP, but what will change is how long I dwell in each notch.

Meanwhile if we're running on time, I'll shut off earlier, brake more gently, in some cases not even use full power between two stations. It all comes down to learning your route and your traction and working out what you need to do at any given time

I was impressed recently how smooth the 67 hauled 'Gerallt' service I took in north Wales was, I was expecting something a lot 'joltier'

No negative comment on drivers intended!!

I take it the loco was leading? Keeping it smooth with the loco pushing is a bit more of a challenge. In either direction it's never likely to be as good as it is with a 91 on the back, as it's relying on the emergency chain coupling and not the buckeye.

On 16x there’s a delay in power delivery, as with 15x, although 15x have far more lower down torque. As far as I’m aware, if you notch up straight to 7 in a 16x, the revs are restricted initially to notch 5 (only for a few seconds). Not sure if that’s what you’re alluding to?

The 16x suffer from the Perkins issue of not moving until notch 5 - I always get paranoid about what people must think of my driving style in a Perkins 158 going to such high revs so quickly, but often it's necessary!

Seems to be that (dependant on throttle setting), the torque converter operates up to ~15mph, then into first gear


1800rpm, which is lower than some hydraulic DMUs, which go to 2100/2350rpm.


I read that somewhere they don't use the top gear.

But I decided to read in more detail.

On reading the spec I found out that the transmission ZF 5HP902R, is a five-speed gearbox with torque converter and integrated braking retarder. The first digit in ZF transmission description codes is the number of gears, the R on the end means Retarder fitted.

So, either the design has more gears but for this application the sixth is locked out OR "six-speed" includes the torque converter as a "speed" and there is no sixth gear.

The 172s and 195s definitely have 6 audible stages in the transmission (in that it sounds like it's working through 6 different gears).

I did hear talk that the London Overground 172s originally had the top gear locked out as they never went fast enough to need it, might it be that that's causing confusion? I would assume that's been rectified now they're regularly doing 90mph + at WMR.

 

[hexagon789]

I take it the loco was leading? Keeping it smooth with the loco pushing is a bit more of a challenge. In either direction it's never likely to be as good as it is with a 91 on the back, as it's relying on the emergency chain coupling and not the buckeye.

I thought 67s had drophead buckeyes...?

The 172s and 195s definitely have 6 audible stages in the transmission (in that it sounds like it's working through 6 different gears).

I did hear talk that the London Overground 172s originally had the top gear locked out as they never went fast enough to need it, might it be that that's causing confusion? I would assume that's been rectified now they're regularly doing 90mph + at WMR.

A torque converter plus 5 gears would be six stages though. Plus, as I said, the official spec says it has five mechanical gears.

 

[O L Leigh]

I thought 67s had drophead buckeyes...?

Buckeyes aren’t much good for push-pull operation, hence the jolting on West Coast and Anglia services not being replicated on the East Coast. The shorter formations help, but it’s really the Tightlocks between the coaches that make the difference.

 

[43096]

I thought 67s had drophead buckeyes...?

They don't, they have the same swing coupler as 66003-250. Given that their original use was on mail vans, you'd have thought a drophead buckeye would have been more use..

 

[craigybagel]

I thought 67s had drophead buckeyes...?

They do, but they aren't compatible with the MKIVs.

A torque converter plus 5 gears would be six stages though. Plus, as I said, the official spec says it has five mechanical gears.

Indeed, I was agreeing with you that I believe it's a torque converter plus 5 mechanical gears, and that all are used - giving six stages.

 

[O L Leigh]

They do, but they aren't compatible with the MKIVs.

Surely you have the TSOE at the outer end which is drophead Buckeye fitted for coupling to the loco. All the Tightlocks are inside the set, hence the need to have a TSOE.

 

[craigybagel]

Surely you have the TSOE at the outer end which is drophead Buckeye fitted for coupling to the loco. All the Tightlocks are inside the set, hence the need to have a TSOE.

AFAIK the buckeye on the 67 isn't compatible with the buckeye on the TSOE. For whatever reason anyway it's not used. It was the same with the MKIIIs as well - Buckeyes folded away and shackle and buffers used instead.

 

[hexagon789]

Buckeyes aren’t much good for push-pull operation, hence the jolting on West Coast and Anglia services not being replicated on the East Coast. The shorter formations help, but it’s really the Tightlocks between the coaches that make the difference.

The Americans used to manage quite well with their larger sized "buckeye" knuckle couplers, until Amtrak banned the practice of power-braking - something which old engineers used to produce glass-smooth stops. Some freight companies still allow it, but lots of modern equipment simply won't allow it - "computer says no" type of thing.

Anything is possible if done correctly...

They do, but they aren't compatible with the MKMKIVs.

Ah right, thanks.

Indeed, I was agreeing with you that I believe it's a torque converter plus 5 mechanical gears, and that all are used - giving six stages.

I do apologise, I've picked you up wrong, sorry.

 

[O L Leigh]

AFAIK the buckeye on the 67 isn't compatible with the buckeye on the TSOE. For whatever reason anyway it's not used. It was the same with the MKIIIs as well - Buckeyes folded away and shackle and buffers used instead.

Maybe the lack of a Pullman rubbing plate…?

The Americans used to manage quite well with their larger sized "buckeye" knuckle couplers, until Amtrak banned the practice of power-braking - something which old engineers used to produce glass-smooth stops. Some freight companies still allow it, but lots of modern equipment simply won't allow it - "computer says no" type of thing.

Anything is possible if done correctly...

Well they have slightly different couplers, as you say. However, British push-pull trains using Buckeye equipped Mk2 or Mk3 stock is rather less well suited. It can be very choppy indeed, and even if driven well there can still be some bumps and jolts.

 

[hexagon789]

Well they have slightly different couplers, as you say. However, British push-pull trains using Buckeye equipped Mk2 or Mk3 stock is rather less well suited. It can be very choppy indeed, and even if driven well there can still be some bumps and jolts.

If power-braking was possible, I think one could achieve very smooth stops.

But asides from never really being a thing in British train handling that I'm aware of, I don't think it's physically possible either?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2022 ==

They don't, they have the same swing coupler as 66003-250. Given that their original use was on mail vans, you'd have thought a drophead buckeye would have been more use..

Ah, so instead of the buckeye dropping to reveal a draw hook, it swings aside as on the 66s so equipped.

I hadn't realised that design existed other than on the 66s.

 

[Stigy]

I can't speak for other drivers here, but I know my own driving style very much depends on the circumstances. Give me a 75mph unit on a 100mph diagram, or a big delay along the route, and I'm going to get to full power from a standing start a lot quicker than if we're on time. I'll still work through the notches as per our PDP, but what will change is how long I dwell in each notch.

I agree and am much the same. Also, if I’m running on restrictive signalling when following a slower train, I’ll usually hold back (especially under 2 aspect signalling - I like to make the distant go green before opening it up). Just less stop/start, and generally smoother for everyone and obviously safer too (I mean, as mitigation against SPADs). It also feels like it’s a generally quicker journey to passengers as you’re not stopped at all.

 

[boom boom]

I certainly noticed it when I was travelling on the Highland Sleeper. I’m probably doing them a disservice, but it did seem as though the GBRf drivers were taking full advantage of not having a load of boxes behind them and driving the thing flat out forgetting that the train was full of people trying to sleep. I quickly decided that, if I wasn’t going to sleep, I might as well track our progress and discovered that we were 15 minutes early at every stop along the West Coast. Even on the Highland section things weren’t much better, something which the stewards agreed with me about on the homeward leg.

For myself, I certainly drive differently now that I’m no longer doing commuter services. The style of driving I used there is no longer needed now that I’m on inter-regional routes, so I do now try to drive more smoothly than before. I always felt right from their introduction that the IC225 sets gave a really good quality experience in that they started away so smoothly that you might not even notice unless you looked out the window. It’s not always possible with modern traction to completely replicate, but I do try to get away as smoothly as I can without any harsh acceleration and brake equally smoothly. It often has me wondering what some colleagues are aspiring towards, especially when I see IETs shooting out of places like Reading like the driver’s hair is on fire.

As well as smoothness around stations, a driver should be able to be smooth between them too. You can usually tell if you’re following another train and, using route knowledge, have a pretty good guess at what it is and, therefore, how fast it’s going and when and where it might stop. Using this knowledge a driver can moderate the train speed such that unscheduled stops at red signals can be reduced. Certainly there’s no point racing away from one red signal if you know that the next one is also likely to be red. As well as giving the passengers a smoother ride and reducing the perception of any delay, it can help to safeguard the driver’s record, as you can’t SPAD a signal that isn’t red.

I’m sorry.but the earlier part of your statement about GB drivers and their train handling is utter hogwash.Most of us only work Class 1 sleepers. With some freight work for a few drivers. We have comfort speeds we must adhere to.Are downloaded on a regular basis,and any allegation of rough riding due to alleged over speeding is investigated fully. The coaches are monitored in real time. As are some of the locos.
If you believe the train is rough,then it’s most likely track geometry,or the abysmal suspension on the MK 5 vehicles The timetables are heavily padded which can often lead to early station arrivals . Personally I would never comment on how another driver handles his or her train. Especially if I didn’t sign that traction or route

 

[TimboM]

I’m sorry.but the earlier part of your statement about GB drivers and their train handling is utter hogwash.Most of us only work Class 1 sleepers. With some freight work for a few drivers. We have comfort speeds we must adhere to.Are downloaded on a regular basis,and any allegation of rough riding due to alleged over speeding is investigated fully. The coaches are monitored in real time. As are some of the locos.
If you believe the train is rough,then it’s most likely track geometry,or the abysmal suspension on the MK 5 vehicles The timetables are heavily padded which can often lead to early station arrivals . Personally I would never comment on how another driver handles his or her train. Especially if I didn’t sign that traction or route

Quite... the vast majority of sleeper drivers are highly-experienced Class 1 men who've been driving passenger and/or sleeper services over the routes for many, many years/decades. On top of that, as you say boom boom, most of the GB 'Sleeper Link' drivers spend the vast majority of the time working the Sleeper, so it's not like you have a "freight driver" who's not experienced in handling them.

Most of the Beds drivers I know will drop to speeds lower than their 'guidelines' for certain junctions / curves to aid passenger comfort and they are very aware that they're hauling a trainload of sleeping passengers - in stock with particularly iffy suspension and some of the most brutal brakes you'll find on any passenger stock in this country.

Timings are padded throughout - to illustrate the Lowlander was 80-odd late at Preston the other night and arrived into Euston only a few mins late - with a loco that can only go 87mph max on the front.

 

[niggill617@gma]

I agree and am much the same. Also, if I’m running on restrictive signalling when following a slower train, I’ll usually hold back (especially under 2 aspect signalling - I like to make the distant go green before opening it up). Just less stop/start, and generally smoother for everyone and obviously safer too (I mean, as mitigation against SPADs). It also feels like it’s a generally quicker journey to passengers as you’re not stopped at all.

Seems very logical. When I learnt Paddington to Reading HSTs, the host driver told me 60 mph at the inductor for the single yellow, with a rate of deceleration established ( 4 aspect 125 mph permissible speed) , when following. This advice based on his vast experience and perfect long safety record, fits the theory of the Group Standards signalled braking distances , and defensive driving policy.

I mentioned this on corporate Yammer. A manager said " we don't want drivers charging up to single yellows at 60 mph", thus proving he does not understand.

 

[O L Leigh]

Well, I did say that I was probably doing you guys a disservice, but that was my impression of my journey. Maybe I had one of your less considerate colleagues on the downward leg because sleep was less of an issue on the way back up.

 

[3141]

The secondary school I attended in the 1950s was in central London, and I travelled daily from Southgate to Chancery Lane. On the Piccadilly Line I used to keep a record of the time the train took between each station. The condition of the rolling stock would have had something to do with it, but there were occasions when the driver accelerated as fast as possible and kept pushing forward, doing his best to regain speed if there was a signal check. The record for Turnpike Lane to Manor House was 2 minutes 50 seconds. If there was no evidence of a slowing for a signal but that journey took over 3 minutes it was SLOW.

These days I don't travel often enough to notice much difference between driving styles. But I do enjoy those journeys in a class 159 from Whitchurch to Waterloo where the train approaches the terminus early enough not to be brought to a stand just outside, and gets into the platform four or five minutes early.

 

[WizCastro197]

377s make you very aware if such driver's driving style. Most enjoy a fast acceleration out of stations and then a linseed cruise typically arriving a few minutes earlier than planned and there are those very few that take accelerating slowly but typically arrive late.

 

[ComUtoR]

377s make you very aware if such driver's driving style. Most enjoy a fast acceleration out of stations and then a linseed cruise typically arriving a few minutes earlier than planned and there are those very few that take accelerating slowly but typically arrive late.

Some 377s have isolated motors. They accelerate poorly and struggle to reach top speed. I'm not sure if it's all the fleet. What you have experienced is not driving style so much but more a unit issue.

 

[londonmidland]

I notice some Avanti drivers really like to slam on. It’s surprising how good the brakes are on Pendolino’s.

 

[185]

In a word yes. There's far more than Clarksons Hammonds & your Captain slows... all drivers drive a little differently. The buzzer you get back (or lack of) often also gives away straight away whose up front

 

[Bikeman78]

Most of the West Anglia seem to go for it. On the Hertfords they had to flog the 317s to keep time; the schedule from Tottenham Hale to Ponders End was pretty much impossible. By chance I had two runs with a trainee driver about 10 days apart. It was interesting to observe how much more confident she was on the second run.

 

[Route115?]

Seems very logical. When I learnt Paddington to Reading HSTs, the host driver told me 60 mph at the inductor for the single yellow, with a rate of deceleration established ( 4 aspect 125 mph permissible speed) , when following. This advice based on his vast experience and perfect long safety record, fits the theory of the Group Standards signalled braking distances , and defensive driving policy.

I mentioned this on corporate Yammer. A manager said " we don't want drivers charging up to single yellows at 60 mph", thus proving he does not understand.

I remember 40 years ago (long before defensive driving) travelling on a Chatham line up peak train into Cannon St and the driver was driving at full speed on double and I think even single yellows. I don't doubt that train (I think 12 CEP, may have included VEPs) would have had any trouble stopping. Indeed the balancing speed on level track was 72 mph, less on a gradient. I doubt that the timetable would have worked if drivers only drove at full speed on a green - indeed it struggled during leaf fall.

 

[387star]

A Lady on a 377 just said the Driver is putting their foot down...