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Do We Run Too Many Trains?

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whhistle

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I was reading another thread and noted Network Rail's response about train regulation.
They said by the end of the year, the South East hopes to be running 6000 trains, which is more than some countries.

That all sounds great but surely with more trains means more risk of trains being late, which is what we currently have.

So should we actually look at reducing the number of trains to have a more punctual railway, rather than throwing loads of trains at the network, and then wonder why we're so congested?
 
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computerSaysNo

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Once you run so many trains that it's a "turn up and go" frequency (1 train per 10-15 mins), I would argue that a (public) timetable isn't really needed as you just go to the station and get on the first train that turns up. Therefore if there is no timetable then technically a delay wouldn't cause a service to become late, it would just extend the travel time.
 

PeterC

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I am sure that there are a lot of trains that could be cut from the public timetable on the grounds of usage. Trouble is that trains will end up at one end of the line doing nothing rather than running back to fetch some more passengers.

Or you get silly situations where they put big gaps in the service but still run the trains as ECS.
 

ge-gn

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From the point of view of an infrastructure worker, my answer is yes.

With track access being continually squeezed to fit in fresh air carrying stock, there is less and less time to do essential maintenance and renewal works causing undue stress to those who carry it out, and works getting deferred over and over again due to there not being enough time to do the planned task.
 

cjp

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If you are talking of the south east then of course we do. The evidence is strike days when with fewer or no trains the world does not come to an end does it?
 

Randomer

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Surely it depends on the capacity of the route to absorb the number of services.

In the South East certain routes are pretty much at capacity both in terms of number of services and just as importantly the length of trains the infrastructure can support without huge remodelling of terminal stations (i.e. somewhere around 10 or 12 carriages depending on length.) Certainly in the morning peak the number of services is required to carry the number of people even with the longest sensible train lengths. If the trains exist and the marginal cost of running them in quieter times of the day is fairly low for an EMU then a frequent service makes it more appealing for occasional passengers who arguably give more revenue per journey than season ticket holders.

Other parts of the country not so much. Running 3/6 or even 5 carriage trains in areas where the infrastructure is pretty much to its maximum capacity in terms of trains per hour (e.g. Castleford corridor) is arguably not a sensible system. In pure capacity terms in these areas a less frequent service with much longer trains might be sensible. However, this discounts where the trains have come from to get to the congested area (e.g. an hourly Scarborough service would arguably be much worse served by a one train per two hour 10 carriage train rather than an hourly 5 carriage one.)

Likewise taking up one of the limited slots on the east coast main line with a 4 carriage overcrowded Voyager rather than a much longer LNER service is in pure passenger throughput terms on the face of it a bad idea in the particular area; discounting where the service has come from. Especially as the infrastructure where they stop could support 9 carriage or longer trains however without significant extra funding for Crosscountry or the government being willing to actually have a competition for the franchise this is unlikely to change.

I would be interested to see if there was a passenger survey asking if they would prefer a less frequent for example 1 train per 2 hour service but with 12 carriages, more tables, legroom and less crowding what the answers would actually be. I suspect my view that this might be preferable would possibly resonate on the forum but not more widely with passengers in general. Along with whether people who use XC services would answer differently depending on whether they were mainly using for short commuting (they are the fastest Leeds-Sheffield service for example) rather than through journeys.
 

sprunt

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If you are talking of the south east then of course we do. The evidence is strike days when with fewer or no trains the world does not come to an end does it?

The world might not come to an end - which seems a strange metric for whether a particular service is sensible to run but hey ho - but there is a severe impact on (tens of?) thousands of people who effectively have their working day extended by the imposition of a need to use longer routes to their place of work, which can become severely overcrowded as a result.
 

tbtc

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Surely it depends on the capacity of the route to absorb the number of services.

In the South East certain routes are pretty much at capacity both in terms of number of services and just as importantly the length of trains the infrastructure can support without huge remodelling of terminal stations (i.e. somewhere around 10 or 12 carriages depending on length.) Certainly in the morning peak the number of services is required to carry the number of people even with the longest sensible train lengths. If the trains exist and the marginal cost of running them in quieter times of the day is fairly low for an EMU then a frequent service makes it more appealing for occasional passengers who arguably give more revenue per journey than season ticket holders.

Other parts of the country not so much. Running 3/6 or even 5 carriage trains in areas where the infrastructure is pretty much to its maximum capacity in terms of trains per hour (e.g. Castleford corridor) is arguably not a sensible system

I agree with the above.

I've no problem with the frequencies on the old Southern Region since many of these services run at the maximum (ten/twelve coach) length permitted by the infrastructure and most of these services provide a simply patterned timetable to a London terminus...

(Ideal world, I'd tidy up some of the routes so that some lines get 100% of their services going to one terminus rather than a handful to Canon Street and a handful to Charing Cross, or a handful to Victoria and a handful to London Bridge, but this is me quibbling)

...but on the "Provincial" network, many services are much shorter than the infrastructure and we keep cramming more trains onto lines rather than longer trains in existing paths.

Take Leeds - York via Garforth (the route that is apparently too busy for XC to be permitted to run additional four/five coach Voyagers that way).

Leeds and York can take full InterCity length trains but (other than the hourly XC service) the longest trains are generally three coaches long.

We could have used resources to lengthen existing services, but instead we have found paths for Northern to double their service (so that the existing Preston - York service is sped up with an hourly "stopper" introduced to serve the intermediate stations). Similarly TPE have increased in recent times from three trains per hour (Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Scarborough) to four (doubling the Newcastle service, initially introduced as a service that didn't run north of York).

So the Northern/TPE service has gone up from four per hour (plus hourly XC) to six per hour (plus hourly XC).

Why? Because the two TOCs want to compete for a bigger slice of the ORCATS "pot" and because there's an obsession with running direct services over long distances.

Same problem in Manchester, where Oxford Road is being swamped with thirteen passenger services per hour (plus freight) because of the "need" to give everywhere a direct Manchester Airport link. But, because these are generally long distance services through Oxford Road, they are badly co-ordinated so you can end up with a ten/fifteen minute wait (e.g. xx:54 - xx:09 eastbound).

It's chicken and egg though - people want direct services because they think that changing trains is unreliable but one of the reasons why changing trains is unreliable is that there are so many services fighting their way onto a busy network (which means dwell times are poor because a two coach DMU only has four doors, rather than a longer trains which could accommodate more people in a shorter time).

And then you come on here and see people agitating for direct links between places hundreds of miles apart (because they don't want to have to change trains). I get that changing trains will put some people off and there are certain people who would only countenance a direct service but it feels like the tail wagging the dog - we are so focussed on the minority of passengers doing the irregular long distance journeys (where changing trains may be a fact of life, but these inexperienced travellers are reluctant to change trains) rather than having simple reliable well-spaced services on separate routes (but clock-face and regular enough to make changing relatively simple).

The world might not come to an end - which seems a strange metric for whether a particular service is sensible to run but hey ho

In fairness, the "world might not come to an end" seems to be the default defence of Brexit by people who promised us Sunny Uplands a couple of years ago and are now ordering body bags and warning of food shortages!
 

Modron

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An ever growing population (think we have about 65m people living in the UK currently?) plus only so many trains on so many lines...

Some people might say that there are too few and that old routes need to be rebuilt where practical and possible.
 

EM2

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For the infrastructure that we have, I'd say that in certain areas yes, there are too many.
In this week's Railnews, Andrew Haines says 'There are more services on the network than ever. In the busiest places, the network runs at or near to capacity at peak times, with little to no recovery time when incidents occur'.
I believe that before the rebuilding, London Bridge was at 105% capacity in the morning peak?
 

AM9

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Once you run so many trains that it's a "turn up and go" frequency (1 train per 10-15 mins), I would argue that a (public) timetable isn't really needed as you just go to the station and get on the first train that turns up. Therefore if there is no timetable then technically a delay wouldn't cause a service to become late, it would just extend the travel time.
As an extension to that argument, I would argue that where frequent trains run to the same or similar destinations, that any delay repay assessment should be based on any extension of the actual travel time, including from the from the advertised trains that the claimant intended to catch. If that isn't clear, what I mean is that say there is a service xx:00, xx:10, xx:20, xx:30, xx:40 and xx:50 where the xx:00 and xx:30 trains travel beyond the end stop of the other four trains. So if the whole service is running twemty minutes behind schedule, only those intending to travel to the stations served by only the xx:00 or xx:30 trains would be able to claim anything more than a 10 minute delay plus any extra travelling time of the train that they actually used.
 

Bald Rick

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As an extension to that argument, I would argue that where frequent trains run to the same or similar destinations, that any delay repay assessment should be based on any extension of the actual travel time, including from the from the advertised trains that the claimant intended to catch. If that isn't clear, what I mean is that say there is a service xx:00, xx:10, xx:20, xx:30, xx:40 and xx:50 where the xx:00 and xx:30 trains travel beyond the end stop of the other four trains. So if the whole service is running twemty minutes behind schedule, only those intending to travel to the stations served by only the xx:00 or xx:30 trains would be able to claim anything more than a 10 minute delay plus any extra travelling time of the train that they actually used.

I think that’s how it works.
 

geoffk

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It's chicken and egg though - people want direct services because they think that changing trains is unreliable but one of the reasons why changing trains is unreliable is that there are so many services fighting their way onto a busy network (which means dwell times are poor because a two coach DMU only has four doors, rather than a longer trains which could accommodate more people in a shorter time).
Changing trains is also unreliable because connections are not held. Performance targets take priority over passenger needs. On the continent, where even quite tight connections can generally be relied on and are often cross-platform, passengers are much more willing to change.
 
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