Do We Really Need Ticket Offices?

[Bletchleyite]

Many, many holders of the Senior Railcard, I would suggest. Takeup would very probably drop significantly if it moved to online only. Groups representing the target market for Disabled Railcards are also likely to have something to say about it.

Provided an order could also be completed by post or telephone I don't see an issue.

That's the point though, isn't it. Closing ticket offices is merely step one in the process of staffing cuts, in just the same way that Southern's OBS role is the beginning of destaffing trains. There has to be a veil of deceit about these things in the first instance, in order to avoid pesky public sympathy. Then, once the punters have largely learned to fend for themselves, sharpen up the axe.

That some TOCs will misuse it is not a reason not to do it. Overall, modern technology allows process improvement without destaffing in a more morally driven organisation.

Look at it from scratch - if you designed the railway today as a new-build, would you have the current ticketing system and ticket office system? I wouldn't.

 

[glbotu]

So, the basic argument lives in whether an increase in the complexity of TVMs would be welcome in any way. I, as a highly computer literate person would probably be absolutely fine. My mum, as someone who often struggles with technology (not to any extreme amount either, just isn't as comfortable as me), probably would not. Just the concept of say, buying a ticket from a different origin station, while maintaining the simplicity of "buy off-peak return from here to y", is something that would be very difficult to do (I know, I write software for a living, this is one of the major challenges in software development). Even if you had some absolutely genius interface designers making your interface, you'd still have to deal with a notable slow-down in the throughput of passengers at the ticket vending point, because you have more opportunities to have a decision "fork", which slows down thinking time, let alone the number of touches. You'd also get "chancers", who maybe aren't great at technology, but think they are, trying to get themselves a discount by trying lots of different options, again, slowing down the TVMs' throughput.

Clearly we "currently" need ticket offices, because if they disappeared overnight, you'd lose about 80% of feasible tickets to purchase, in case that wasn't collossally clear to anyone.

 

[Starmill]

I entirely don't understand this eagerness to make railcards unavailable for immediate issue. How much is this really going to save and what else will we get out of this quite significant loss of flexibility?

 

[northwichcat]

I personally think yes we do still need them. Many disabled passengers / elderly passengers / foreign tourists can find TVMs confusing and hard to use. Lots of stations are unstaffed or dont have anyone around to help with using TVMs. Also there are lots of tickets that are not available to purchase from TVMs.

I think the problem is we have a confusing ticketing system. A TVM can easily be programmed to deal with transactions in many different languages so should be easier for foreign tourists who only know a few words of English but when they face a choice of Anytime Return, Off-Peak Return, Anytime Day Return and Off-Peak Day Return how do they know which ticket to purchase?

 

[ComUtoR]

I will drop a bombshell here and say that I do not believe ticket offices are needed, provided that we can get the functionality of the ticket machines extended.

This is the most obvious first step. Unfortunately I don't think it would be possible. As already highlighted there is too much a ticket machine cannot do. I also see that there is too much of an over complication of the ticketing system for the machines to be able to cope; let alone the passenger. What happens if the passenger buys an incorrect ticket or what happens when the machine defaults to offering the highest priced options only ? With all the various caveats that tickets have will there be more screens to read with T&C's to accept. Will the passenger have to accept any ticketing errors ? The machine also needs to accept ALL forms of payment.

I find that the problem with the machines isn't that they don't so much offer my ticket or all the options but more that the tickets are so complicated that you need the human to explain everything, get you the best option, tell you the ticket restrictions, and even tell you where to board your train and what time the next one is. The human does so much more than just sell you a ticket.

The role of ticket office staff can then evolve and be moved out from behind a glass screen.

ONLY if the staff role does evolve. What I suspect would happen is that it becomes an excuse for removing staff. I also suspect that it becomes a customer service role and that all the training that comes with being part of the ticket office staff will be removed. If everything about the role still exists and they still need the training etc then your removing the ticket office for no reason. I'd be interested to see what your new role will entail and what they are capable of.

Busier stations can then get their travel centres back.

But how does that differ from a ticket office ? If they are providing the same advice then why not keep them in ticket offices ? Or is it just another mechanic to close smaller ticket offices.

Until we can get the ticket machines working with a comprehensive list of tasks, ticket offices are very much needed imo and the debate is a little pointless.

Tell that to GTR....

 

[Quakkerillo]

Not all TVM's will be able to accept enough notes/coins, as they could also be an easy target for theft. And as a foreigner, my Dutch and Belgian Maestro-enabled debit cards don't always work the machines either, plus this would incur significant costs to me because of the conversion rates.

Furthermore, travelling with interrail myself this month, and getting seat reservations isn't possible at TVM's or anywhere, as they don't just hand out blank reservations because then people could abuse the system and blanket-book seats.

And where would I have been able to buy a certain Sail & Rail ticket without ticket offices? It already was hard enough for the ticket office guy in London Victoria station to get it (with my extensive knowledge through this forum, I had to help him find it), and this wouldn't have been any easier at a TVM, also because - at the moment at least - not all ticket types are available.

You could degrade them to 'information points', but even then the whole range of tickets need to be made available, and thorough information about available tickets, routes, and pricing needs to be possible to be obtained from station staff, and that would just make it easier to have as a ticket office, because how else would this be achieved?

 

[Dave1987]

Of course, you could have topped up at one of the thousands of Oyster ticket stops across London, topped-up online or even (as I do) have auto top-up enabled on my Oyster card so I never have to visit an LU ticket office.

I use my Oyster on an ad hoc basis to get around London now and again. I find it far easier to visit a ticket machine (i used to go to the ticket office and speak to a human until they shut them all down!) to top up my pay as you go Oyster.

 

[transmanche]

(i used to go to the ticket office and speak to a human until they shut them all down!)

And you still can speak to a human if you visit an Oyster ticket stop...

 

[BestWestern]

That some TOCs will misuse it is not a reason not to do it. Overall, modern technology allows process improvement without destaffing in a more morally driven organisation.

Look at it from scratch - if you designed the railway today as a new-build, would you have the current ticketing system and ticket office system? I wouldn't.

I think 'some TOCs misuing it' is a very generous outlook. This is the DfT, not the TOCs, and their intention is to destaff the railways to the greatest extent they can possibly get away with. They have no interest in the customer experience, they have a largely captive market and quite frankly if a huge swathe of passengers abandoned the railways tomorrow, they'd think it was Christmas. As far as TVMs go, the scene will be very similar I suspect to the self service checkouts in a busy supermarket. Waiting, waiting, for the overburdened supervising staff member to get to you, because half of the people using the machines require help. Only, in the case of railway tickets, each case of assistance could very possibly take much, much longer than it does in a supermarket. It doesn't matter if most users are perfectly adept, it only needs a several machines to be blocked by those needing a hand, and the backlog can easily become vast.

We will also, I suspect, see a big surge in remotely supervised gatelines. Heck, why not tap the help point videolink into the iPads of the roving staff and have them deal with that, too. Makes sense, saves money....and creates a nightmare for staff and passengers. But the DfT cares only about the first two points, and has no regard whatsoever for the third. This is the reality of the desired low cost, no frills railway of tomorrow. I fear it won't be a pleasant way to travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the reality of the desired low cost, no frills railway of tomorrow. I fear it won't be a pleasant way to travel.

FWIW SBB is a very low-staff operation, and is an entirely pleasant way to travel.

I don't advocate this approach - I would rather the same number of staff were retained but doing more useful things than sitting behind glass doing what a machine and website can do quite adequately if implemented properly. But it can work.

(I recently noticed that SWT have their own TVM software which is vastly, vastly more intuitive than the standard S&B software, being a little more like the SBB software, and is used on all their TVMs whatever the manufacturer - quite an improvement there).

 

[BestWestern]

FWIW SBB is a very low-staff operation, and is an entirely pleasant way to travel.

I don't advocate this approach - I would rather the same number of staff were retained but doing more useful things than sitting behind glass doing what a machine and website can do quite adequately if implemented properly. But it can work.

(I recently noticed that SWT have their own TVM software which is vastly, vastly more intuitive than the standard S&B software, being a little more like the SBB software, and is used on all their TVMs whatever the manufacturer - quite an improvement there).

Forgive my ignorance Neil; what's SBB and what sort of operation are they?

What you've highlighted regarding SWT TVMs is an important point also. The current crop vary in terms of interface, capability, useability and, crucially, reliability. Having a single standard of TVM, or at least a unified agreement on layout and functionality, would be a very great help. And they also need to work. We have machines which decide they only wish to accept a certain form of payment, which stop working in the rain, which have screens that are no good in the sunshine, or which simply cease to function at random. None of that is really good enough if we are to move toward a TVM-only future. Work needs to be done to get these really rather fundamental issues sorted.

 

[Llanigraham]

It depends on your definition of "need". There are certainly far too many booking offices open considering how little many of them are used.

Most people do not use a ticket office except to renew or buy season tickets (why are these not all done online now??), or to make complex transactions.

I often wonder what would actually happen if the railway closed all its ticket offices overnight. I certainly haven't used one in years and years, with the exception of buying Priv fares when I was entitled to them.
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Ticket offices aren't *needed* if the best justification you can give is that they are *wanted*.

I buy all my airline tickets online and have done since, well, ever. I bet people moaned when airline offices closed as well.

Funny, but the few ticket offices I use are being used by normal people buying normal tickets, so your generalisation is not correct.

Airline comparisons are pointless, as has been proven on here numerous times!

 

[ainsworth74]

Forgive my ignorance Neil; what's SBB and what sort of operation are they?

Swiss Federal Railways the national operator of Switzerland's rail network.

 

[WestCoast]

With all the complexity of the current ticketing system I think there's still a strong demand for the staffed ticket office. It depends on the station, but I find it's often quicker to use the ticket office rather than the TVMs due to slowness of the machines. A lot of the interfaces aren't exactly intuitive either. TVMs are getting better (e.g. VWC's new machines) but they can't offer the full range of services nor can most sell products like rovers (why not?!).

You could take the future ticket office in a number of directions, they can become convenience stores too like Merseyrail, charge a small fee for their use on simple tickets (e.g. as in the Netherlands and Germany), or even abolish on-station sales completely in favour of the onboard ticket office. This isn't as crazy as it sounds, private operator WESTbahn in Austria only sells tickets online or onboard from one of the seven "attendants" (one per double deck carriage) that double up as catering hosts. Excluding the first one, none of these options would work with the UK ticketing system at the moment.

 

[Starmill]

What you've highlighted regarding SWT TVMs is an important point also. The current crop vary in terms of interface, capability, useability and, crucially, reliability. Having a single standard of TVM, or at least a unified agreement on layout and functionality, would be a very great help. And they also need to work. We have machines which decide they only wish to accept a certain form of payment, which stop working in the rain, which have screens that are no good in the sunshine, or which simply cease to function at random. None of that is really good enough if we are to move toward a TVM-only future. Work needs to be done to get these really rather fundamental issues sorted.

It's interesting isn't it. I was having a conversation recently with someone who works in banking about the standards their industry has decided on for machines used by customers to ensure that they're reliable, available and don't cause any issues for a hapless customer. They may not be regulatory standards, but they have been deemed necessary to protect the reputations of the machine operators.

Perhaps GWR aren't so worried about protecting their reputation as to ensure that their machines work properly, are easy to use, offer everything or most things the customer might want, and don't create problems for customers like authorising a transaction and not dispensing.

 

[najaB]

As long as the railway continues to accept cash as a payment method then we need ticket offices. Machines don't always accept notes and I'm not comfortable with the idea of staff walking around with potentially large sums of money on their person.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

---snip---
Most people do not use a ticket office except to renew or buy season tickets (why are these not all done online now??), or to make complex transactions.

Some people do not wish to give their debit/credit card details over the internet

 

[Bletchleyite]

As long as the railway continues to accept cash as a payment method then we need ticket offices. Machines don't always accept notes

I haven't found a massive problem with this in recent years though it used to be quite bad.

and I'm not comfortable with the idea of staff walking around with potentially large sums of money on their person.

A valid concern, though guards often are!
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Some people do not wish to give their debit/credit card details over the internet

Then they choose not to avail themselves of certain discounted products.

It is more secure to use your card online than in person.

It is nonsensical to spend money pandering to unfounded fears - better to educate people as to why they are unfounded. FWIW I pay for most things, online and not, with my credit card, and I have encountered fraud twice - both were in-person "skimming" incidents. In both cases the card company dealt with all costs.

 

[Dave1987]

I haven't found a massive problem with this in recent years though it used to be quite bad.



A valid concern, though guards often are!
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Then they choose not to avail themselves of certain discounted products.

It is more secure to use your card online than in person.

It is nonsensical to spend money pandering to unfounded fears - better to educate people as to why they are unfounded. FWIW I pay for most things, online and not, with my credit card, and I have encountered fraud twice - both were in-person "skimming" incidents. In both cases the card company dealt with all costs.

So the SOCD of the police must be completely wrong when they say that online fraud and identity fraud is skyrocketing. I am certainly very very wary of inputting my card details in websites after people I know have been the victim of online fraud. I find your tone on this rather insulting to be honest. Online fraud is a serious concern and some people simply don't trust the internet.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm sure Whitehall and the RDG would love all ticket offices to close after all the volume of people I see collecting TOD's that are full price walk on fares and have paid a booking fee to the likes of trainline who believe they've saved money by booking online....

You've got to be A IT literate and B have knowledge of the fare system to get the best out of booking online otherwise your a couple of clicks away from being over charged.

And how many people are? Amazing how many senior railcard renewals I do with the holder saying they've tried online but couldn't manage it.

I'm sorry I don't see taking away ticket offices as being part of giving the customers what they want but more a cynical attempt to increase revenue by leaving folk fighting the over complex fare system hoping they make mistakes.

 

[BestWestern]

A frequent example of a current issue; passengers travelling at the weekend presenting a full price First Class ticket. Could have been sold the cheapest Standard fare plus a bargain weekend upgrade, saving potentially hundreds. How many TOCs ensure that their TVMs inform and sell accordingly? I know of at least one which does not. Just an example, and yes it's a "first world problem", but it shows the difference between a human and a robot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the SOCD of the police must be completely wrong when they say that online fraud and identity fraud is skyrocketing.

Of course they are, it's because use of the Internet is skyrocketing!

I am certainly very very wary of inputting my card details in websites after people I know have been the victim of online fraud.

You are right to be critical - always check HTTPS is being used, always check the URL, always look for signs of fraud. But you should do that each time you use an ATM, too. And a TVM, for that matter.

I find your tone on this rather insulting to be honest. Online fraud is a serious concern and some people simply don't trust the internet.

This is a totally unfounded fear provided you are a little "streetwise", just as in non-online life.
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A frequent example of a current issue; passengers travelling at the weekend presenting a full price First Class ticket. Could have been sold the cheapest Standard fare plus a bargain weekend upgrade, saving potentially hundreds. How many TOCs ensure that their TVMs inform and sell accordingly? I know of at least one which does not. Just an example, and yes it's a "first world problem", but it shows the difference between a human and a robot.

TBH I'd abolish Weekend First and replace it with First Class Off Peak fares at a reasonable markup (around 1.5 to 1.6x). Problem solved.

It wouldn't take a lot to *actually* simplify the fares system to remove this kind of anomaly.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So the SOCD of the police must be completely wrong when they say that online fraud and identity fraud is skyrocketing.

It will do, use of the internet is skyrocketing.

However fraud does not occur in a secure online transaction with a reputable retailer. Most online fraud either involves disreputable retailers, or it involves people falling foul of phishing scams.

Buying a railway ticket online using a credit or debit card is safer than carrying a stack of twenties down the ticket office to do it there.

 

[AlterEgo]

Some people do not wish to give their debit/credit card details over the internet

That's a very small number of rather paranoid people, and tough, frankly.
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So the SOCD of the police must be completely wrong when they say that online fraud and identity fraud is skyrocketing. I am certainly very very wary of inputting my card details in websites after people I know have been the victim of online fraud. I find your tone on this rather insulting to be honest. Online fraud is a serious concern and some people simply don't trust the internet.

But that is because more people are using the internet to buy things.

It is certainly much less secure to use your card in person. I have had my card cloned before but have never had an issue using it online.

 

[tankmc]

Until they have better ticket machines that you can get all tickets on yes.

Currently my local station i can get a ticket to Hunstanton including the bus journey online and from the ticket office but its not available on the ticket machine!

This is particularly annoying as the ticket office is not open all the time and buying online is no good if unless you know in advance.

Also ticket machines are slow and under-provided, particularly if a customer is not used to them. With my local station only having one machine and one train a hour many times i have had to travel without a ticket because the line is so long. A ticket office is quicker and easier to use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is certainly much less secure to use your card in person. I have had my card cloned before but have never had an issue using it online.

Indeed. 3D Secure has been an excellent advance here - it means (a) your bank shows you something specific you expect when you pay by card that is different from bank to bank, so would be difficult for fraudsters to replicate (certainly if any merchant doesn't use it I now do some digging to ensure there has not been fraud I could report there and then), and (b) a piece of information not written down anywhere is required to complete a cardholder-not-present transaction.

 

[Ze Random One]

The issue here is the Ticketing agreement not keeping pace, and the issue of potential discrimination.
Until online and TVM retail channels are subject to the same impartiality requirements as a ticket office, destaffing is a tremendously bad idea.
A variety of disabilities, some of which are unlikely to make the sufferer eligible for a disabled railcards, make the use of online and machine-based transactions difficult or impossible.
There is also likely to be indirect discrimination against age, due to discomfort with technology, and nationality, unless all of the restrictions are also translated.
Many poorer people do not have full debit cards, and may only have cash point cards. If your bank has denied you a debit card, is that your choice?
Finally, tube ticket offices sell only an extremely limited range of tickets, and oyster ticket stops even more so, when compared with the contents of the national fares manual. Using these as an example is like comparing a tuckshop with a supermarket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Until they have better ticket machines that you can get all tickets on yes.

That of course is entirely achievable - look at SBB or Nederlandse Spoorwegen's machines. And in Italy they manage to cope with compulsory reservations and quota-priced services, and in Germany with train category and route specific pricing. It really isn't hard at all.

Also ticket machines are slow and under-provided, particularly if a customer is not used to them. With my local station only having one machine and one train a hour many times i have had to travel without a ticket because the line is so long. A ticket office is quicker and easier to use.

Both of those can be improved. You can fit two narrow-form TVMs in the space of one ticket window. You can fit faster printers, particularly if we can move away from the credit-card-sized orange card onto different form factors, and/or fit multiple printers (perhaps three) into each machine.

FWIW, what I'd envisage for the future is (in addition to online ticketing):-

Small stations: two TVMs, one on each platform

Medium stations: a number of TVMs, perhaps five, in a central ticketing area by the entrance. One assistance window. Possibly a small fee (£1) for use of the window for things the TVM can do (a list would need to be defined) to keep it free.

Large stations: a bank of many, perhaps 20+, TVMs in a ticketing area plus a few dotted around the station. A travel centre with perhaps 5-6 sit-down desks and a take-a-number queueing system for those requiring detailed advice, again a fee would be chargeable for use of this if you made a request easily obtained from a TVM.

TVMs to have remote video assistance from a call centre. The remote assistance could make the TVM print a "you can't get that here" voucher to remove the fee for listed products.

I would suggest a ticket office fee would be charged for:-
1. Anytime (Day) and (Super) Off Peak (Day) tickets originating from that station for travel on the same day.
2. Local area tickets like Travelcards, GMPTE Rangers etc.
3. Weekly and monthly season tickets up to a specified value.

A fee would not be charged for the purchase of tickets for say 8 or more people travelling together, nor for adding to Railcard groups as the existing groups need to be verified so TVMs won't allow the purchase.

A fee would not be charged for holders of DSB Railcards, nor for anyone stating that a disability prevents use of the TVM. (This might result in a few people lying, however the queues will still be kept down as most people would not sink as low as to lie about a disability).

Annual season tickets are a right nuisance, and I would abolish them to be replaced by a monthly direct debit season ticket available online, by telephone or by post. Season ticket refunds could move to being by post only, as without annuals the need for them would reduce massively.

In the event of there not being a certain specified percentage of TVMs in service, the fee would also be waived.

Euston's setup is not unlike my "large station" proposal, except for the fee, and by making the TVMs the obvious first thing to go to, with the office around the back, works well.

 

[AlterEgo]

The issue here is the Ticketing agreement not keeping pace, and the issue of potential discrimination.

Agreed. The ticketing system is too complex. The solution as I see it is to deconflict the ticketing system, have a wholesale review, and grossly simplify tickets. This may mean the removal of some niche products or some passenger rights being eased or constricted to make things easier and more intuitive for the customer.

A variety of disabilities, some of which are unlikely to make the sufferer eligible for a disabled railcards, make the use of online and machine-based transactions difficult or impossible.

How do those same people buy airline tickets? Some will go online. Some will get someone else to do it for them (not ideal, no). Some will use an accessible retailer like a travel agency - and that really is where the rail industry needs to go. Sell tickets outside the station environment. There is no compelling reason why a human-staffed booking facility needs to be owned or operated by a TOC.

There is also likely to be indirect discrimination against age, due to discomfort with technology, and nationality, unless all of the restrictions are also translated.

Burn the restrictions.


If you travel by train widely in western Europe you will encounter railway systems which we are told are more efficient, a model to aspire to, yada yada yada. But actually, many of those railways don't have that many staff...especially when it comes to ticket sales.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue here is the Ticketing agreement not keeping pace, and the issue of potential discrimination.
Until online and TVM retail channels are subject to the same impartiality requirements as a ticket office, destaffing is a tremendously bad idea.

Solve the problem, not the symptom

A variety of disabilities, some of which are unlikely to make the sufferer eligible for a disabled railcards, make the use of online and machine-based transactions difficult or impossible.

Reasonable adjustments need to be made for disabilities by law. They do not require the provision of a ticket office for the use of able bodied adults buying a return to the nearest big city, as most are.

There is also likely to be indirect discrimination against age, due to discomfort with technology

Something we really have to address as society as a whole, that. Other countries manage.

and nationality, unless all of the restrictions are also translated.

It's a heck of a lot easier to translate something into many languages on a machine than it is to have a person at every station speaking every one of those languages to explain it.

However, in England it is quite reasonable that products and services are offered in English only, as indeed they are in near enough all ticket offices (add Welsh for Wales of course). In Germany, they are mostly offered in German, in Italy in Italian etc, and quite rightly so. If you go to a country, it is on you to learn the language, or to make use of less convenient alternatives.

Many poorer people do not have full debit cards, and may only have cash point cards. If your bank has denied you a debit card, is that your choice?

It is possible to have cash acceptance at TVMs. But very few people cannot have online-only "Electron" type cards these days (the kind where it is impossible to become overdrawn) and pre-pay cards are widely available. Cash is dying out, and I don't see that as a bad thing.