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Do We Really Need Ticket Offices?

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E_Reeves

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Hi,

Just wondering, with all of this new technology coming out, is there really a need for stations on the mainline and light rail/underground to have ticket offices? Self serving ticket machines are becoming the norm now, and there are usually plenty of staff to help you if you get stuck. Also, online booking is becoming more common, and you also pick your tickets up from the machines!

I'd like to hear other people's views and opinions.

Thanks
 
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Hi,

Just wondering, with all of this new technology coming out, is there really a need for stations on the mainline and light rail/underground to have ticket offices? Self serving ticket machines are becoming the norm now, and there are usually plenty of staff to help you if you get stuck. Also, online booking is becoming more common, and you also pick your tickets up from the machines!

I'd like to hear other people's views and opinions.

Thanks

I personally think yes we do still need them. Many disabled passengers / elderly passengers / foreign tourists can find TVMs confusing and hard to use. Lots of stations are unstaffed or dont have anyone around to help with using TVMs. Also there are lots of tickets that are not available to purchase from TVMs.
 

E_Reeves

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I personally think yes we do still need them. Many disabled passengers / elderly passengers / foreign tourists can find TVMs confusing and hard to use. Lots of stations are unstaffed or dont have anyone around to help with using TVMs. Also there are lots of tickets that are not available to purchase from TVMs.

I agree on your views on large stations/terminuses, but smaller stations have less of a need.
 

CyrusWuff

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Just wondering, with all of this new technology coming out, is there really a need for stations on the mainline and light rail/underground to have ticket offices? Self serving ticket machines are becoming the norm now, and there are usually plenty of staff to help you if you get stuck. Also, online booking is becoming more common, and you also pick your tickets up from the machines!

Things UK ticket machines can't (currently) do:
  • Sell tickets requiring reservations
  • Issue Railcards
  • Issue Season Tickets valid for more than one month (and the number that can issue monthlies is limited)
  • Issue tickets with staff (and certain other) discounts
  • Sell tickets for other than the day of purchase, next day or next working day
  • Mix multiple Railcards in a single transaction

And that's just off the top of my head...I'm sure there are other things I haven't thought of.
 

Muzer

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I think the idea that the OP is getting at is the same as the one that London Underground have — have an option on TVMs that only staff can access that unlocks all the features formerly only available in a ticket office, then move staff out of the office to wander round and assist people who look like they are having problems, effectively using the machines for them. This would obviously include disabled passengers/elderly passengers/foreign tourists, and people wanting to buy tickets not available from the public TVM interface.

I'm still yet to be convinced entirely that this is a bad idea, though I can imagine it could be hard in some circumstances to attract the attention of a member of staff. I've still not needed to use London Underground's new system in practice.
 

E_Reeves

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Things UK ticket machines can't (currently) do:
  • Sell tickets requiring reservations
  • Issue Railcards
  • Issue Season Tickets valid for more than one month (and the number that can issue monthlies is limited)
  • Issue tickets with staff (and certain other) discounts
  • Sell tickets for other than the day of purchase, next day or next working day
  • Mix multiple Railcards in a single transaction

And that's just off the top of my head...I'm sure there are other things I haven't thought of.

Many of these points could possibly be included in TVMs in the future?
 
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me123

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Yes, very much so!

The machines that are available to the public are much more limited than what the person behind the counter has. Most ticket machines can only issue tickets for immediate travel on that day from that station. They serve a useful function - they can complement the ticket office by providing the most commonly requested tickets required.

However, the following is a short list of some useful functions that they cannot (all?) do.
  • Issue railcards
  • Issue season tickets (with the exception of renewals on occasion)
  • Issue rovers and rangers
  • Issue seat reservations
  • Book advance tickets
  • Offer split ticketing
  • Buy a ticket starting from another station
  • Buy a ticket for future travel (i.e. not today)
  • Allow you to pay in cash (in some instances)
  • Offer change in any denomination larger than a one pound coin
  • Offer passengers meaningful advice
  • Smile and make eye contact

Many of these can be achieved online, but not everyone is capable of going online, and not everyone is going to go online for every journey (short notice journeys being the prime example). And even the internet can't answer all of these queries - a first time season ticket purchaser still needs to go to the ticket office, and if you buy a railcard online you have to wait a few days for it to come through the post (which isn't much use if you want to use it today).

So yes, they remain essential. Technology is supplementing them, not replacing them (at the moment).
 

sheff1

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I think the idea that the OP is getting at is the same as the one that London Underground have — have an option on TVMs that only staff can access that unlocks all the features formerly only available in a ticket office, then move staff out of the office to wander round and assist people who look like they are having problems, effectively using the machines for them. This would obviously include disabled passengers/elderly passengers/foreign tourists, and people wanting to buy tickets not available from the public TVM interface.

I'm still yet to be convinced entirely that this is a bad idea, though I can imagine it could be hard in some circumstances to attract the attention of a member of staff. I've still not needed to use London Underground's new system in practice.

Yesterday I needed to get my recently renewed railcard details added to my Oyster. Despite Kings Cross/St Pancras being one of the busiest Underground stations around, and with great numbers of tourists and visitors from large swathes of the UK arriving, finding someone to assist was difficult. The first two banks of TVMs I found had no staff in the vicinity. In the third location a harassed staff member was surround by tourists, for whom English was not the first language, brandishing wads of £50 notes (which the TVMs don't accept). When I finally got to speak to him, he updated my Oyster swiftly ... but is was a good job I had a good half hour before my train North. It would have been a far better experience to go to a fully staffed ticket office.
 

Dave1987

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Ticket offices are very very much needed. Lots and lots of people want to be served by a human being and not a machine. I regularly walk past ticket machines that are out of service. It massively frustrates me that we are trying to dehumanise everything in the modern world. Do people really only ever want to be served by machines?
 

AlterEgo

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It depends on your definition of "need". There are certainly far too many booking offices open considering how little many of them are used.

Most people do not use a ticket office except to renew or buy season tickets (why are these not all done online now??), or to make complex transactions.

I often wonder what would actually happen if the railway closed all its ticket offices overnight. I certainly haven't used one in years and years, with the exception of buying Priv fares when I was entitled to them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ticket offices are very very much needed. Lots and lots of people want to be served by a human being and not a machine. I regularly walk past ticket machines that are out of service. It massively frustrates me that we are trying to dehumanise everything in the modern world. Do people really only ever want to be served by machines?

Ticket offices aren't *needed* if the best justification you can give is that they are *wanted*.

I buy all my airline tickets online and have done since, well, ever. I bet people moaned when airline offices closed as well.
 
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Dave1987

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I think the idea that the OP is getting at is the same as the one that London Underground have — have an option on TVMs that only staff can access that unlocks all the features formerly only available in a ticket office, then move staff out of the office to wander round and assist people who look like they are having problems, effectively using the machines for them. This would obviously include disabled passengers/elderly passengers/foreign tourists, and people wanting to buy tickets not available from the public TVM interface.

I'm still yet to be convinced entirely that this is a bad idea, though I can imagine it could be hard in some circumstances to attract the attention of a member of staff. I've still not needed to use London Underground's new system in practice.

I have used LU ticket machines to top up my Oyster at a busy station, it was a complete nightmare. One member of staff to supervise multiple ticket machines with a massive queue to use them. I cannot see how anyone can believe the new system is better, considering the amount of staff at LU ticket offices seems to have been cut. This notion that shutting ticket offices just gets staff out from behind the glass is nonsense.
 

bb21

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I will drop a bombshell here and say that I do not believe ticket offices are needed, provided that we can get the functionality of the ticket machines extended. The role of ticket office staff can then evolve and be moved out from behind a glass screen. Not all the things the ticket offices can currently process will need to be available at the station either, with many potentially to be moved to an online function only, such as the issue of Railcards.

Some people will inevitably lose out, but how many?

At many smaller stations, ticket office staff already carry out other tasks, and that will likely continue whatever ticketing facilities are provided in those places.

Busier stations can then get their travel centres back.

Until we can get the ticket machines working with a comprehensive list of tasks, ticket offices are very much needed imo and the debate is a little pointless.
 

transmanche

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I have used LU ticket machines to top up my Oyster at a busy station, it was a complete nightmare.
Of course, you could have topped up at one of the thousands of Oyster ticket stops across London, topped-up online or even (as I do) have auto top-up enabled on my Oyster card so I never have to visit an LU ticket office.
 

Starmill

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When a ticket machine can do a second order ammendment to an Advance ticket, process refunds on the spot and complete a season ticket changeover, then you can look at closing ticket offices. I use ticket offices all the time. Even basic things, for example the printing of journey plans aren't offered at ticket machines (very very few ticket machines will even show you a journey plan on the screen let alone print it out for you).

Not being able to issue a railcard at a station is also a very bad move in my view. A lot are still issued at stations I think, and if someone loses their railcard it's likely their cheapest way to correct the situation (given as they may have to buy a new full price ticket otherwise, rather than an excess). In addition it means that people will be forced to order their railcard in advance and allow time for postage. I don't see a good reason for that.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Things UK ticket machines can't (currently) do:
  • Sell tickets requiring reservations
  • Issue Railcards
  • Issue Season Tickets valid for more than one month (and the number that can issue monthlies is limited)
  • Issue tickets with staff (and certain other) discounts
  • Sell tickets for other than the day of purchase, next day or next working day
  • Mix multiple Railcards in a single transaction

And that's just off the top of my head...I'm sure there are other things I haven't thought of.

Except the issue of Railcards which could be done via a call centre/online/by post, all of those just require a software update to fix.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I buy all my airline tickets online and have done since, well, ever. I bet people moaned when airline offices closed as well.

You still tend to have them at airports, mainly for paying for excess baggage etc. Surprisingly even Ryanair does not sell these self-service - only the check-in fee is sold via a machine.
 

AlterEgo

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You still tend to have them at airports, mainly for paying for excess baggage etc. Surprisingly even Ryanair does not sell these self-service - only the check-in fee is sold via a machine.

Excess baggage payments are usually done at the check-in counter; baggage does not require a ticket.

A passenger will not normally ever need to visit an airline ticket desk unless they miss their flight. Even then, their functions are able to be done by airline lounge staff, telephone agents or - with some airlines in the USA - with automated machines in gate areas.

I have never ever used an airline ticket office in over 300 flights.
 

yorksrob

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I think the idea that the OP is getting at is the same as the one that London Underground have — have an option on TVMs that only staff can access that unlocks all the features formerly only available in a ticket office, then move staff out of the office to wander round and assist people who look like they are having problems, effectively using the machines for them. This would obviously include disabled passengers/elderly passengers/foreign tourists, and people wanting to buy tickets not available from the public TVM interface.

I'm still yet to be convinced entirely that this is a bad idea, though I can imagine it could be hard in some circumstances to attract the attention of a member of staff. I've still not needed to use London Underground's new system in practice.

This seems like a pointless idea to me. If you going to have staff, far better to have them at the counter with access to all the information that a passenger might need, and allowing passengers to form an orderly queue, than having them wandering around lugging machinery that doesn't even do what their work station would have done.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I will drop a bombshell here and say that I do not believe ticket offices are needed, provided that we can get the functionality of the ticket machines extended. The role of ticket office staff can then evolve and be moved out from behind a glass screen. Not all the things the ticket offices can currently process will need to be available at the station either, with many potentially to be moved to an online function only, such as the issue of Railcards.

Some people will inevitably lose out, but how many?

At many smaller stations, ticket office staff already carry out other tasks, and that will likely continue whatever ticketing facilities are provided in those places.

Busier stations can then get their travel centres back.

Until we can get the ticket machines working with a comprehensive list of tasks, ticket offices are very much needed imo and the debate is a little pointless.

We all seem to be up on accessibility and whatnot in this day and age, yet the default position seems to be to expect everyone to go online. It doesn't really matter how small the proportion of people who lose out will be. If the railway is supposed to be accessible to all, that should include those who have low computer literacy or can't afford an internet connection as well.
 

DarloRich

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I think the idea that the OP is getting at is the same as the one that London Underground have — have an option on TVMs that only staff can access that unlocks all the features formerly only available in a ticket office, then move staff out of the office to wander round and assist people who look like they are having problems, effectively using the machines for them. This would obviously include disabled passengers/elderly passengers/foreign tourists, and people wanting to buy tickets not available from the public TVM interface.

I'm still yet to be convinced entirely that this is a bad idea, though I can imagine it could be hard in some circumstances to attract the attention of a member of staff. I've still not needed to use London Underground's new system in practice.

try Euston station on a Saturday morning. 57 million people and 2 staff with i pads. It is even more chaotic than it ever was.
 

Bletchleyite

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Excess baggage payments are usually done at the check-in counter; baggage does not require a ticket.

A passenger will not normally ever need to visit an airline ticket desk unless they miss their flight. Even then, their functions are able to be done by airline lounge staff, telephone agents or - with some airlines in the USA - with automated machines in gate areas.

I have never ever used an airline ticket office in over 300 flights.

I'm pretty sure easyJet and Ryanair redirect you to the ticket counter to pay for excess fees. Unless it's changed very recently.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
We all seem to be up on accessibility and whatnot in this day and age, yet the default position seems to be to expect everyone to go online. It doesn't really matter how small the proportion of people who lose out will be. If the railway is supposed to be accessible to all, that should include those who have low computer literacy or can't afford an internet connection as well.

Low computer literacy isn't a disability, it's something that can be taught. So to me the best way is to provide funding to get everyone a connection and a simple device (e.g. an Android tablet with a simplified OS - you don't have to use a PC or Mac which will be more complex) and training to use it.

Anyone who cannot use the Internet is at a serious disadvantage in society - so let's remedy that. Anyone who refuses is voluntarily shutting themselves out of vast swathes of society - their loss - just like people who refused to use the telephone 50 years ago, and no doubt those who opposed the printing press before that.

Exceptions have to be made for those with disabilities, but a ticket office at every station is not likely to be the most effective way of providing that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
try Euston station on a Saturday morning. 57 million people and 2 staff with i pads. It is even more chaotic than it ever was.

As there is a tourist centre upstairs on the concourse, wouldn't it be be better that they just parcel everyone off up there?

A sign on the wall in front of the escalators pointing to it might help.

The major stations where tourists enter the system are a different case to the vast majority of central London stations which are mainly destinations, not origins (and thus few ever require ticketing services there) and to local stations outside the centre which are used by locals who use them day in day out and know how to use them. Funnily enough, the provision at those stations is different - it just seems it isn't being managed right.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This seems like a pointless idea to me. If you going to have staff, far better to have them at the counter with access to all the information that a passenger might need, and allowing passengers to form an orderly queue, than having them wandering around lugging machinery that doesn't even do what their work station would have done.

I do think a customer services counter makes sense - but also that the default, to keep queues down, should be that you only go there if you are really stuck. A Dutch style fee for tickets issued there, maybe £1 per passenger, might do. Exceptions would be made for those with disabilities, naturally.
 
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3141

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I will drop a bombshell here and say that I do not believe ticket offices are needed, provided that we can get the functionality of the ticket machines extended.
Until we can get the ticket machines working with a comprehensive list of tasks, ticket offices are very much needed imo and the debate is a little pointless.

The problem with that is that the machines then become more complex, and finding the function you want becomes more difficult. The ones that hardly anyone uses frequently won't be prominent on the screen. Individuals who don't use a feature regularly may forget how they found it the last time they did use it. At my local station there was until recently only one machine. Starting about ten minutes before a train is due is the time when people start arriving to buy a ticket, so if you're standing there trying to work out how to find the function you want you're holding up passengers who know what they want and want to make sure they get that train.

I'm sure the use of machines will increase and there'll be fewer ticket offices, but when every station had a ticket office everyone who wanted to travel by train knew they could get a ticket and could find out what they might need to, whereas with machines there will probably be a higher proportion of potential travellers who won't.
 

LowLevel

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I'm probably going to shock here as well and say that actually, provided enough staff are available, they have somewhere to treat to a place of safety, and it doesn't mean the complete de staffing of the station (as it seems to have done in places in the Netherlands, there's a lot of large, empty station buildings at present with maybe a token 'Kiosk' catering thing open part of the day) I have less of a problem. If it's used as an opportunity to destaff then I'd fight it all the way.

The current position of closing travel centres and having one or two windows that do immediate and advance tickets with a few machines that may or may not work is distinctly sub optimal. Places like St Pancras that don't have enough staff manning windows often have queues out of the door and we are constantly getting emails about letting people pay on board or to travel with reference numbers due to long queues. You get Doris who wants to spend 10 minutes booking a string of advances winding up someone who wants to travel now.

I have to admit I hate the modern undermanned ticket office and make many moves to avoid it - the only time I've visited one recently are to book sleeper tickets. For actual priv tickets unless it's ad hoc (the last one I needed ended up with me spending longer queueing at James Street for it than I did travelling) I get another conductor to sell them to me on an Avantix either on the train or in the mess room in advance as appropriate.
 

SpacePhoenix

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One thing all the TOCs could do with doing is expanding the functionality and/or useability of smart cards.
 

bramling

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try Euston station on a Saturday morning. 57 million people and 2 staff with i pads. It is even more chaotic than it ever was.

This basically sums it up perfectly.

For the average passenger, the consequence of this is:

# if you already have a ticket the chaos makes it take longer to enter the station

# if you need to buy a ticket it now takes longer. Before generally the unfamiliar 'tourist' types would tend to queue for the ticket office, leaving the machines free for more regular people.

# do we really think the staff can provide a better service standing up all day in a noisy and crowded booking hall, compared to being in an air-conditioned office with all the resources and telephone readily to hand?

So do we really *need* ticket offices? Maybe not, but I certainly *want* them and find they provide a superior, faster and more civilised service.
 
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al78

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A quick anecdote on a situation I found myself in when trying to buy a ticket from Horsham to Manchester on one of the days of Southern Rail strike action (late May).

I had used the train to get to Worthing early in the morning without any problems. I looked on the national rail website to check that trains were going from Horsham to London in the afternoon, it said there was a service but with reduced frequency, and trains would be running all afternoon. In mid afternoon I headed to Horsham station, walked up to a window and asked the man for a return to Manchester (returning a few days later). The man said "you won't make it". I was surprised by this based on the information on the national rail website so asked him to check again, and if it was possible to get from Three Bridges to London. I got the same response again, so I hired a car from a nearby firm instead. What would likely have happened if there were no staff selling tickets and I had bought a ticket from the machine?
 

BestWestern

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I will drop a bombshell here and say that I do not believe ticket offices are needed, provided that we can get the functionality of the ticket machines extended. The role of ticket office staff can then evolve and be moved out from behind a glass screen. Not all the things the ticket offices can currently process will need to be available at the station either, with many potentially to be moved to an online function only, such as the issue of Railcards.

Some people will inevitably lose out, but how many?

Many, many holders of the Senior Railcard, I would suggest. Takeup would very probably drop significantly if it moved to online only. Groups representing the target market for Disabled Railcards are also likely to have something to say about it.

This seems like a pointless idea to me. If you going to have staff, far better to have them at the counter with access to all the information that a passenger might need, and allowing passengers to form an orderly queue, than having them wandering around lugging machinery that doesn't even do what their work station would have done.

That's the point though, isn't it. Closing ticket offices is merely step one in the process of staffing cuts, in just the same way that Southern's OBS role is the beginning of destaffing trains. There has to be a veil of deceit about these things in the first instance, in order to avoid pesky public sympathy. Then, once the punters have largely learned to fend for themselves, sharpen up the axe.
 
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Trog

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I always buy my Underground tickets from the nearest mainline booking office when travelling on the tube. As I have had problems in the past with the tube gate line staff lying, about ticket type availability. Even insisting that the ticket type I wanted was no longer sold, in the face of being shown one I had bought that same morning.
 

transmanche

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Many, many holders of the Senior Railcard, I would suggest. Takeup would very probably drop significantly if it moved to online only. Groups representing the target market for Disabled Railcards are also likely to have something to say about it.
Simple solution. Do what Nexus do and llnk it to their ENCTS (or similar) card.

ENCTS cards are not valid for travel on Nexus Metro. But if you pay an annual fee *, you can 'upgrade' your ENCTS card to a 'Gold Card' and travel off-peak free on the Metro. The 'upgrade' can be done at Metro TVMs and at Payzone outlets. Problem solved.

* £12 for T&W residents, £25 for everyone else.
 
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