Do ticket gates cause conflict?

[Heartland]

The advantages of ticket gates may appear clear as they form a barrier only to open for the correct pass or ticket. Yet there are those amongst the travelling public who lack the courtesy of waiting for others in front to pass through. There is a certain space where a person can stand before their request is actioned. Yet, I have seen in Birmingham New Street and International people nudging the ticket holder forward in a desperate action for progress. Some even push in front in the hope of getting through. Such outpouring of selfishness must cause problems for the station staff on these occasions.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I hate barriers, last time I used them at Newark it ripped my Mum's ticket to shreads, then someone had to open it, and it rammed shut on her!

They are unreliable, (not accepting valid tickets, open half the time).
They are dangerous, (shutting on people, and not being wide causing stampede like effects)
They cause delays, (especially if you're in a wheelchair, they are always far from the exit and have an impossible bump)
They are obsolete in every way, all we need is a conductor to check anyway.

My blood boils every time I see them.

 

[Antman]

The advantages of ticket gates may appear clear as they form a barrier only to open for the correct pass or ticket. Yet there are those amongst the travelling public who lack the courtesy of waiting for others in front to pass through. There is a certain space where a person can stand before their request is actioned. Yet, I have seen in Birmingham New Street and International people nudging the ticket holder forward in a desperate action for progress. Some even push in front in the hope of getting through. Such outpouring of selfishness must cause problems for the station staff on these occasions.

Inevitably there is going to be somebody rushing for a train and the last thing that they want is a ditherer in front of them. If I see somebody rushing for a train I will try and keep out of their way and often fare dodgers will tailgate somebody else.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I hate barriers, last time I used them at Newark it ripped my Mum's ticket to shreads, then someone had to open it, and it rammed shut on her!

They are unreliable, (not accepting valid tickets, open half the time).
They are dangerous, (shutting on people, and not being wide causing stampede like effects)
They cause delays, (especially if you're in a wheelchair, they are always far from the exit and have an impossible bump)
They are obsolete in every way, all we need is a conductor to check anyway.

My blood boils every time I see them.

I don't disagree with you but what other way is there to tackle fare evasion? Conductors are never going to get through packed rush hour trains to check everybody.

 

[FordFocus]

There will be more ticket barriers across the network whether people like them or not. It's the DfT way now. More ticket barriers, smartcards, less on train staff and the eventual extension of penalty fares.

 

[rebmcr]

They work perfectly fine in London. The network would completely fail without them, and everyone is used to them so it goes well.

 

[Antman]

They work perfectly fine in London. The network would completely fail without them, and everyone is used to them so it goes well.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that, the network didn't completely fail before their introduction and neither does it now when they are left open.

 

[rebmcr]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that, the network didn't completely fail before their introduction and neither does it now when they are left open.

Todays peak is something that didn't used to happen, and gates are invariably manned during the peaks.

 

[Failed Unit]

Must admit not a fan of them at Welwyn Garden City, but the problem here is the gateline is too small because of the bridge. finsbury park is as bad. Both cases the bridge / subway is a public right of way. Net result is at Finsbury Park it is one of the few stations you can avoid payment of tube fares.

 

[stut]

They work perfectly fine in London. The network would completely fail without them, and everyone is used to them so it goes well.

London mostly works well with them. But then a large proportion of people are commuting (no luggage/children), using Oyster cards (simple, short journeys, well-designed, fast-acting smartcard system) and there tend to be enough barriers to let everybody through.

Compare that with an outer-suburban station, trying to disgorge most of a rammed 12-car peak-time express through 2-3 barriers, mostly on paper tickets (a mish-mash of season and a variety of return tickets with a baffling set of rules), some fairly unreliable smartcards that take a few seconds to load, have one person manning the gateline (and so a queue for queries) one wide gate set on two-way (god help you if you're trying to get in for the train going the other way) and a not-insignificant local commuting/leisure flow going against this tide, with a number of people trying to take suitcases and bikes through the barrier while others are trying to get out.

And they don't always work well in London, either. Try taking a couple of kids, a bunch of suitcases and an elderly granny on a Cornwall service out of Paddington, that, through various glitches, gets announced 5 minutes before departure, while the Reading commuters sprint ahead to get a seat, and the queue for the manned gate is 10 deep (and they insist you drop everything and put your ticket through anyway).

Or try Finsbury Park when there's a last-minute platform change, everybody has to head out through the barriers (half of the tickets rejected) and in through the new barriers (all of the tickets rejected) when they haven't realised they need to open them up quickly enough.

Use them, fine. But look at all the reasonable use cases, and design them well, not just "oh, the exit's this wide, we'll fit in 4, whatever".

It's not just ticket barriers that create conflict, though. Any pinch point will. Biggleswade's a good example - the steps are pretty narrow and steep, and there's a bit of a queue builds up in the evening peak. And there's always a certain bunch who feel the need to push to the front...

 

[PeterC]

The advantages of ticket gates may appear clear as they form a barrier only to open for the correct pass or ticket. Yet there are those amongst the travelling public who lack the courtesy of waiting for others in front to pass through. There is a certain space where a person can stand before their request is actioned. Yet, I have seen in Birmingham New Street and International people nudging the ticket holder forward in a desperate action for progress. Some even push in front in the hope of getting through. Such outpouring of selfishness must cause problems for the station staff on these occasions.

What you are describing isn't a simple lack of courtesty its a thieving toerag trying to get through on your ticket.

 

[The Ham]

One of the reasons that London underground gatelines work better is that they are willing to have the in and out lines at different points in a "corridor" so that each can be made wider than half the width of the "corridor" allowing for more gates to be used to enter/exit.

A lot of the mainline stations tend to only have a narrow building and so the gateline just spans the width available.

 

[Antman]

Todays peak is something that didn't used to happen, and gates are invariably manned during the peaks.

Not at all stations they're not.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Inconvenient when you are carrying bags in one hand and a cup of coffee in the other....

 

[Bungle73]

Todays peak is something that didn't used to happen, and gates are invariably manned during the peaks.

Didn't used to happen? What?

 

[northwichcat]

London mostly works well with them. But then a large proportion of people are commuting (no luggage/children), using Oyster cards (simple, short journeys, well-designed, fast-acting smartcard system) and there tend to be enough barriers to let everybody through.

Or just any contactless bank card these days. Exit barriers have an advantage in London as they ensure you don't forget to use your card on exiting the station. Elsewhere, ticketing is too complex for them to be on use e.g. in Greater Manchester a System One Daysaver is valid on the train and these can be sold by rail ticket offices, Metrolink TVMs, Paypoint machines and on buses and ticket barriers only accept one of those four options.

 

[plcd1]

As someone previously responsible for gating LU stns and also talking to several of the early adopter TOCs I am probably in line for vilification from some here.

Gates should work perfectly well *provided* there are enough of them, they are laid out effectively rather than just rammed into the space available, where the tickets are properly coded and issued and staff are properly trained on the equipment and on crowd control.

I am not really convinced that stations with a majority of long distance services really need gates *provided* that the TOCs ensure on train checks are done frequently enough and to a high standard. More urban stations or those with intensive services and high passenger flows are probably better off with gates - *if* run properly.

I leave it to others to conclude whether the TOCs, Rail Settlement Plan and Network Rail have worked together effectively to meet the conditions I've set out above.

 

[rebmcr]

Didn't used to happen? What?

Historic passenger entries/exits are on a continuing upward trend.

 

[johnr57]

Maybe not this thread but recently in France trying to get though a barrier the ticket didn't work for some reason still unknown to me . Unmanned station couldn't make the intercom help understand what was the problem do couldn't get off the platform and back into the real world. Eventually got an incoming person to help we crossed on the accessible barrier , but caution for unsupervised barriers should be advised


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[All Line Rover]

I initially thought the title of this thread was "Do ticket gates cause injuries?". Because as far as I am concerned the answer is "yes", particularly (but by no means exclusively) amongst inexperienced passengers.

 

[bb21]

They work perfectly fine in London. The network would completely fail without them, and everyone is used to them so it goes well.

Witness St Pancras High Level in the morning peak when 18 carriages tip out onto the platforms at virtually the same time.

I am of the opinion that they are just a supplementary tool to onboard checking (as opposed to the DfT way of replacing onboard checking) and are a necessary evil however.

 

[156478]

I hate barriers, last time I used them at Newark it ripped my Mum's ticket to shreads, then someone had to open it, and it rammed shut on her!

They are unreliable, (not accepting valid tickets, open half the time).
They are dangerous, (shutting on people, and not being wide causing stampede like effects)
They cause delays, (especially if you're in a wheelchair, they are always far from the exit and have an impossible bump)
They are obsolete in every way, all we need is a conductor to check anyway.

My blood boils every time I see them.

what happens when you have a 4 car 142 or any combination of sets with no end gangway? due to rules and regulation the conductor must remain in the back set, so that the front set has the driver and the rear set has the conductor for safety purposes.
Up in Scotland we have some routes like Anniesland/Maryhill, Barrhead, Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts, Fife Circles, East Kilbride which are operated by conductors and there are stops literally every mile or less and they are operated by multisets of class 156/158/170, if it wasnt for the gates at Glasgow Central/Edinburgh/Haymarket/Edinburgh Park and Queen Street the revenue lost to the railway would run into thousands everyday. Even on routes with Ticket Examiners who do not have to do the doors Ticket Examiners can have a 7 car 380 and struggle to get through it.
They are a necessary evil to help the railway collect the revenue from people who given half a chance would try not to pay for. Open stations was a bad mistake in BR days and rife fare evasion and the resultant antisoclal behavior is the expensive result.

 

[krus_aragon]

Historic passenger entries/exits are on a continuing upward trend.

So that's why I saw Henry VIII entering Paddington last week.

 

[FOH]

I find it interesting watching arrivals at London Bridge while awaiting my platform to be announced. On every Thameslink train that terminates I'd estimate 2-3 double shufflers come through the gates. The staff see them but do nothing at all, not even yell. Of course those less savvy who may have just made a mistake get pounced on.

 

[Failed Unit]

My biggest problem is "error code 9". Hopefully technology will eliminate it. But the looks you get from the other passengers as you have to try and fight your way through them to the staffed barrier.

*other error codes apply, 9 is just the one I always get.

 

[Antman]

I find it interesting watching arrivals at London Bridge while awaiting my platform to be announced. On every Thameslink train that terminates I'd estimate 2-3 double shufflers come through the gates. The staff see them but do nothing at all, not even yell. Of course those less savvy who may have just made a mistake get pounced on.

Doesn't surprise me at all, those who have just made a mistake are far easier to deal with than fare dodgers.

I grassed up a 'double shuffler' entering Victoria to one of the staff, he just shrugged his shoulders and said "happens all the time here". May as well remove the barriers then?

 

[SWT_USER]

I don't mind barriers when they are well located/ designed. The ones on P12 at Paddington are awful and cause a bottleneck every time a train arrives on P12. They should be relocated or removed altogether.

 

[sheff1]

find it interesting watching arrivals at London Bridge while awaiting my platform to be announced]On every Thameslink train that terminates I'd estimate 2-3 double shufflers come through the gates. The staff see them but do nothing at all, not even yell.

Doesn't surprise me at all, those who have just made a mistake are far easier to deal with than fare dodgers.

I grassed up a 'double shuffler' entering Victoria to one of the staff, he just shrugged his shoulders and said "happens all the time here". May as well remove the barriers then?

This is what annoys me. Obvious dodgers are ignored, but if your valid ticket is rejected by the barrier you are pounced upon by staff claiming you are travelling illegally.

 

[telstarbox]

I don't mind barriers when they are well located/ designed. The ones on P12 at Paddington are awful and cause a bottleneck every time a train arrives on P12. They should be relocated or removed altogether.

How many trained staff would you need to check the same number of passengers in less time than the barriers can?

 

[timbo58]

If the question is do the gates themselves or their placement cause conflict then the answer is NO.

It's a human interaction that causes conflict situations.

The gateline if properly designed and considered intelligently (and most importantly manned by professional staff) can run very well indeed and any major interchange without them nowadays would lose an eye-watering amount of money if it didn't consider them.

i.e..a major station project I was involved in used a 'financial business case' projecting savings* of up to £1m pa to get the gates installed, in the first year the results were 3 times that amount!

Even with 12-14 gateline staff, the initial cost and administration were recouped in less than 6 months.

*for 'savings' read legitimate earnings really since they were not earning anything more they were just getting paid for journeys that otherwise would have been subject largely to theft.

Barriers not only ensure passengers pay something, they keep out unsociable elements such as beggars and drunks and ensure an ever present member of staff can be found.

 

[SWT_USER]

How many trained staff would you need to check the same number of passengers in less time than the barriers can?

Given the calibre of most gateline staff who would let you through with a library card that would be pointless.

I'm not against barriers, just those which are poorly designed/ located.