Do operating companies really choose the right person?

[crewmeal]

A few years ago I applied for a position on Central trains as it was known then as a Train Manager. I was selected for the test but failed it because I couldn't join the dots up quickly enough during that particular part of the test.

My back ground is that I had 30 years in Cabin Services with British Airways before I took severance back on 2001 because of 9/11. My question is as I've had a career managing airline crew including a Cabin Service Director on a 747 why couldn't I have been selected for a Train Manager's job?

It's now 2011 and I'm not happy working where I am and because of cutbacks in further education and I'll soon be unemployed, so I've rekindled my interest in railways and applied to Network Rail for a Customer Service position and completed the online application form. Now I'm a young at heart 61 year old and in excellent health etc etc, so with my previous experience what do you think my chances are of securing a position?

All this came about after a trip to New St station to see my friend off to Glasgow on Friday night. I asked the man at the barrier if I could escort my friend to the train due to lack of English and he was only to glad to oblige. However when I asked about which train to board on the appropriate platform and where to sit I was virtually ignored by the young man who didn't even give me eye contact and bellowed at me it wasn't his job to find seats. Two differing standards of customer service within 5 minutes. I thought if he can get a job why can't I?

Whilst I might not be the brightest of sparks when it comes to aptitude tests I'm certainly streets ahead when dealing with the pubic from all walks of life.

Any constructive comments would be helpful.

 

[mumrar]

A few years ago I applied for a position on Central trains as it was known then as a Train Manager. I was selected for the test but failed it because I couldn't join the dots up quickly enough during that particular part of the test.

The aptitude tests are designed to deal with decision making in pressure situations to cover the safety critical role. Nobody finishes them in time, I certainly didn't, but they are looking for a competent speed and good level of accuracy.

You would have applied for a Conductor's job under Central Trains by the way, they never used the title Train Manager for the guard's role.

All this came about after a trip to New St stationQqQ to see my friend off to Glasgow on Friday night. I asked the man at the barrier if I could escort my friend to the train due to lack of English and he was only to glad to oblige. However when I asked about which train to board on the appropriate platform and where to sit I was virtually ignored by the young man who didn't even give me eye contact and bellowed at me it wasn't his job to find seats. Two differing standards of customer service within 5 minutes. I thought if he can get a job why can't I?

If this was somebody on the ticket barrier at New Street, they were hired in on external contracts and given the bare minimum training as regards to ticket inspection.

They genuinely do not have the training to help with platform enquiries, which is handled by the desk to the side of the barrier. So instead of giving you potentially the wrong information through guesswork, the staff member has rightly pointed out that he isn't able to do competently.

As to the seats, this member of staff would most likely not even know what type of train you'd be getting for the trip, even less what coached and seats you would have.

The railway tends to train grades to specialise in the role given, rather than being a jack of all trades, master of none. To summarise the above, it is perfectly understandble for them to not know the answer to your query as it doesn't fall under the remit of their duties, especiallyt when the connections booth is mere feet away from the barrier.

I hope this information is of some help to your post.

 

[crewmeal]

As to the seats, this member of staff would most likely not even know what type of train you'd be getting for the trip, even less what coached and seats you would have.

It was 2 voyagers together. Surely he could have guided me to the right part of the train.

If this was somebody on the ticket barrier at New Street, they were hired in on external contracts and given the bare minimum training as regards to ticket inspection.

They genuinely do not have the training to help with platform enquiries, which is handled by the desk to the side of the barrier. So instead of giving you potentially the wrong information through guesswork, the staff member has rightly pointed out that he isn't able to do competently.

You missed the point. I knew which platform the train was departing from, it was the guy at the barrier who gave me permission show my friend to the train.

To summarise the above, it is perfectly understandble for them to not know the answer to your query as it doesn't fall under the remit of their duties,

So why are they on the platform in the first place if not to help passengers with possible queries? I always thought part of a customer service roll was to take responsibility and not have the 'it's not my job' attitude.

 

[mumrar]

I'm a bit confused now, who said about not knowing the seats. The OP implied it was the barrier staff, but now I get the impression it may have been despatch staff.

In the main at Birmingham New Street you will get any of the following - Class 150, 153, 158, 170, 175, 220, 221, 323, 350, 390 units. Bearing in mind that the internal layout of XC 221s differ from Virgin 221s and the same is the case for variants of Class 170, it isn't reasonable to expect despatch staff to know what seats are where.

It may well seem lazy to say 'it's not my job' but a) it isn't, and b) what if they guessed and got it wrong? You'd be just as unhappy.

Do you know the internal layout of all other airline's aircraft who share the airports you work out of, and if so is this information you have picked up or were you trained in this specifically?

 

[crewmeal]

The guy at the barrier was kind enough to let me through with my friend so I could show him where to go, in this case it was platform 4. End of.

The guy on platform 4 was the rude one who didn't even bother to acknowledge me. I'm not sure of these guy's titles. All I wanted was a little help as to which voyager to use and where coach B was. Nothing more.

I don't want to get into a slanging match just need some info on prospective jobs thats all.

 

[mumrar]

The guy at the barrier was kind enough to let me through with my friend so I could show him where to go, in this case it was platform 4. End of.

The guy on platform 4 was the rude one who didn't even bother to acknowledge me. I'm not sure of these guy's titles. All I wanted was a little help as to which voyager to use and where coach B was. Nothing more.

I don't want to get into a slanging match just need some info on prospective jobs thats all.

Nobody is getting in to a slanging match, I'm merely saying you are expecting something above and beyond the remit of his duties.

As regards prospective employment I know that CrossCountry put vacancies on their website www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk but I'm not sure about Network Rail.

 

[Fred26]

The railway tends to train grades to specialise in the role given, rather than being a jack of all trades, master of none. To summarise the above, it is perfectly understandble for them to not know the answer to your query as it doesn't fall under the remit of their duties, especially when the connections booth is mere feet away from the barrier.

I think it's more specific than that - most railways staff I've come across, as one myself, are not even a master at their own 'trade' and only know the bare minimum to get past. Sad really, training and job efficiency could be so much better.

 

[mac]

as i have put before i think with the railways it's more of who you no not what you no

 

[Zoe]

There does seem to have been a shift in recent years towards only employing people with experience in the revelant area. For example if you've never had to deal with an emergency situation in your previous employment it can be a bit difficult to get a safety critical job.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I'm merely saying you are expecting something above and beyond the remit of his duties.

I think that misses the point, when somebody asks me a question that I am not able to answer I will either go and find the answer (if time permits) or refer the passenger to somebody that can answer their question, at the very least I would a solution of some form. Failure to acknowledge a passenger, lack of eye contact and general 'not my job' type of behaviour is not acceptable in a customer facing role (not exclusive to the railway). The person in question could at the very least have said that the coach letters are on the external displays next to each door.

 

[mumrar]

general 'not my job' type of behaviour is not acceptable in a customer facing role (not exclusive to the railway).

Well I'll go and ask the help desk person at my bank about mortgages and see if they know the answer. I'm sure they will say it is not their job, before passing me off to somewhere else.

The person in question could at the very least have said that the coach letters are on the external displays next to each door.

Which is exactly what the customer can do as well.

People very often complain about the attitudes of staff, but by the end of my shift, having answered dozens of questions ranging from bizarre via daft to plain stupid it wears you down. Especially when people cannot be bothered to open their eyes to look for the information first, or if you are the third person they've asked exactly the same question to :-P

 

[Matt Taylor]

Agreed, and it annoys me when a passenger will ask the ticket office, then the gateline, then platform staff and then still ask me whether this is the train to London and they will get told the same answer four times. The information is available on posters, in announcements, in timetables, on CIS displays and even on the front and side of the train-but I don't see why that should excuse the kind of response that the OP experienced.

Staff who behave like that are playing right into the hands of the bean counters who would gladly make us all redundant given half the chance.

 

[francisoldfield]

with regards to knowing where coach B was, I don't know if things have changed butusually it isnt too hard to for platform staff to find the formation. When I worked as supervisor at Southampton Airport Parkway, that was a regular question "where is coach...?" and you could easily find out.

In regards to suitable person for suitable job, I was turned down twice by FGW to be a conductor at Fratton and yet I had been a conductor at Central/CrossCountry and a week before had been successful to become a train manager at Bournemouth. 2 weeks later I also was offered the job I'm doing now which is Conductor at Southern. So i think different companies want different things (plus I couldn't help but think that FGW didn't want someone as young as me, 24, as they have to young staff at Fratton...)

 

[BestWestern]

In regards to suitable person for suitable job, I was turned down twice by FGW to be a conductor at Fratton and yet I had been a conductor at Central/CrossCountry and a week before had been successful to become a train manager at Bournemouth. 2 weeks later I also was offered the job I'm doing now which is Conductor at Southern. So i think different companies want different things...)

I gotta say I think it's utterly stupid how being fully trained and qualified as a Guard/Conductor/Train Manager/Back Cab Attendant/Sliding Door Supervisor... whichever superfluous term you prefer - let's settle on "Guard" - doesn't seem to hold any sway whatsoever if you should decide that you wish to work for a different TOC.
It seems that if you are a qualified driver, you can expect to be regarded as "qualified" by any potential employer and treated accordingly, and quite rightly so. Yet as a Guard, it appears to be different entirely. The fact that most TOC's would happily plonk you in a room full of non-railway people and expect you to do the same basic 'ticket selling test' etc, when you are already Avantix trained(!!) and a holder of PTS and SCWID etc etc, is utterly ridiculous, surely?!
You are able to save them much time and money in avoiding unneeded training, and can be out and productive in a matter of a few weeks. References and a request for info regarding any safety incidents from your previous/current TOC would confirm your attention to detail in the job. Yet all of this seems to be treated as irrelevant, why??
I hold a PCV licence, and if I were to approach a bus firm for a job I would fully expect to undertake an 'assessment drive' to have my skills observed, but I certainly wouldn't be expecting to re-take my test!!

 

[Matt Taylor]

I think the Fratton jobs were very oversubscribed with Fratton SWT men looking for an easy life whereas the ratio of applicants to vacancies was a bit lower for the Southern jobs.

 

[mumrar]

In regards to suitable person for suitable job, I was turned down twice by FGW to be a conductor at Fratton and yet I had been a conductor at Central/CrossCountry and a week before had been successful to become a train manager at Bournemouth. 2 weeks later I also was offered the job I'm doing now which is Conductor at Southern. So i think different companies want different things (plus I couldn't help but think that FGW didn't want someone as young as me, 24, as they have to young staff at Fratton...)

If my maths is right you went from being a Conductor, to a Train Manager, then applied for FGW and then applied to Southern and got accepted, all in the space of 3 weeks! All this at 24. I wouldn't have offered it to you with such itchy feet either. What would be the point of FGW spending all that money on training/traction/route learning only for you to up sticks a few weeks afterwards?

 

[Mojo]

Prior to April last year CrossCountry had a large station staffing team at Birmingham New Street for pretty much the entire day whose job it was to meet every single CrossCountry departure between about 6am and 10pm IIRC. The first task of the day (assuming they were not required to assist with mobility if there was a staff shortage/extreme number of jobs) was to go on the computers and find out which way round the trains are running and then carry out "platform management" (ie. answer queries and walk up and down the platform making sure people with reservations and those looking for First class to see they were stood in the correct place).

Since Network Rail took over dealing with mobility assistance last April the numbers of station staff working for XC at New Street were cut sharply, as all the mobility and reception staff transferred over to Network Rail, and quite a few of the others did too.

I haven't been to Birmingham New Street since about June last year so I don't even know if XC still have station staff there! I'm sure mumrar, Ferret or someone else who uses the station regularly will know though.

 

[francisoldfield]

No... I lived in Leicester and worked as a senior conductor with Central Trains/CrossCountry. I moved back to Portsmouth and applied for the three jobs (crossCountry train manager, Southern Conductor and FGW Conductor) and waited quite a long time. Then everything seemed to happen at once and I was turned down immediately for FGW at application stage. The same applications went to the other jobs and they went through to assessment. Why waiting for interview FGW came up again (this was about 6 months waiting) and I rang them and asked if I could apply for it. I reapplied to FGW and improved as much as I could with application and was still unsucessful. Interviews for the other jobs came up and I passed both.

Sorry for the confusion, it was a long wait followed by a lot of interviews etc...

My point was as a qualified conductor already FGW were not interested and CrossCountry and Southern were both happy to offer a job. Same person, same qualifications and practically same applications...

 

[notadriver]

I hold a PCV licence, and if I were to approach a bus firm for a job I would fully expect to undertake an 'assessment drive' to have my skills observed, but I certainly wouldn't be expecting to re-take my test!!

Something yourself and Francisoldfield and myself have in common is that we are all ex PCV drivers although you are now both guards and i'm an ex guard and driving PCVs part time. Was it an automatic PCV licence you held?

London bus companies - the really well paying ones such as Selkent and ELBG can afford to be really picky when it comes to choosing who will drive their buses. The former company has a basic pay rate in excess of £14 an hour and nearly £20 an hour overtime rate!

 

[francisoldfield]

yeh my PCV usually guaarantees me an interview but I still have had to have an assessment drive to join each bus company I have worked for.

Just because I had a licence doesn't mean my driving was up to scratch. people develop bad habits

 

[BestWestern]

Hi notadriver,

I was fortunate to learn at a depot which still ran a sizeable fleet of manual minibuses (of the delightful TurboDaily variety) and so all new starters were required to obtain a full manual. It was something of a promotion to go up to the 'Big Bus' rotas as the pay rate was higher, though you may well have argued that stirring cogs on a knackered breadvan with a rock solid clutch all day long was harder work!! Very handy, not that I have ever had to go coaching as of yet thankfully. I don't mean to suggest for a moment that any halfway decent firm would give you a job based merely on being a licence holder, hence my assessment drive comment, but the point I make is that once you are qualified, you are qualified, and any prospective employer would recognise that as a first step of an application for employment. Whilst you may be required to demonstrate that your abilities are up to scratch, it is acknowledged from the outset that you have already been trained to do the job. Not so for us Guards though it seems, if you wish to move elsewhere it's right back to square one

 

[185]

Lets say you've applied for a 'red' train company, let's call them 'Red Coast Trains'. You have the assessments, pass them, then a group exercise, do really well and finally the interview and do really rell with that too. Your assessment scores may be the highest in the group.... but on the two bits that are not factually assessed, instead assessed using someone's opinion - they can pretty much score you whatever they want without any worry of being pulled up for discriminating and being unfair.

So the real answer is it doesn't really matter at the Red train company about you passing exams, good customer care skills or indeed being the best candidate for the job.

Instead, I would suggest growing a large pair of ti**, shaving your legs and becoming related to someone in the management of Vi.. err Red trains limited.

 

[notadriver]

Hi notadriver,

I was fortunate to learn at a depot which still ran a sizeable fleet of manual minibuses (of the delightful TurboDaily variety) and so all new starters were required to obtain a full manual. It was something of a promotion to go up to the 'Big Bus' rotas as the pay rate was higher, though you may well have argued that stirring cogs on a knackered breadvan with a rock solid clutch all day long was harder work!! Very handy, not that I have ever had to go coaching as of yet thankfully. I don't mean to suggest for a moment that any halfway decent firm would give you a job based merely on being a licence holder, hence my assessment drive comment, but the point I make is that once you are qualified, you are qualified, and any prospective employer would recognise that as a first step of an application for employment. Whilst you may be required to demonstrate that your abilities are up to scratch, it is acknowledged from the outset that you have already been trained to do the job. Not so for us Guards though it seems, if you wish to move elsewhere it's right back to square one

Hi Bestwestern, Francisoldfield
I'm just thinking in Francisoldfields' case when he moved down south he took a break from the railway and was driving buses for some time. This could be the reason why he was required to go through the same application process as his licence had lapsed. A female from another TOC transfered into the TOC i used to work for and it took her a 3 to 4 weeks to get productive rather than the 3 months it normally takes.

In any case Francisoldfield aren't you going for a drivers job now?

 

[francisoldfield]

yeh im trying. Originally I was going to stay at Southern for the forseeable future as the depot that I live nearest (fratton) never advertises externally for train crew vacancies (swt that is) however, for the first time in years it has, so I applied there. If I get it great, if not I can stay at Southern (the only problem being its 52 mile round trip and fuel seems to be nothing but going up!)