"Do not go on the track" : is this all going too far.......

[FGW_DID]

..............Is this sort of abuse really in keeping with group guidelines........

Abuse! Are you being serious :roll:?

 

[Antman]

Abuse! Are you being serious :roll:?

So go on then.........................do tell us what you would have done if you had dropped your expensive phone on the track and staff couldn't retrieve it? This should be good......................

Oh and for the record I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, I just think both sides of any argument need to be heard.

 

[SPADTrap]

So go on then.........................do tell us what you would have done if you had dropped your expensive phone on the track and staff couldn't retrieve it? This should be good......................

Oh and for the record I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, I just think both sides of any argument need to be heard.

I'd leave it but I'm bias. I watched someone lose their legs being in the same place. Is that good enough?

The phone is insured, lives can be insured but that is for paper, not another life, sigh.

 

[Deepgreen]

So go on then.........................do tell us what you would have done if you had dropped your expensive phone on the track and staff couldn't retrieve it? This should be good......................

Oh and for the record I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, I just think both sides of any argument need to be heard.

I'm sure many people would be tempted to trespass at quiet stations with a clear view down the line (which doesn't make it right - far from it), but at Doncaster? Apart from anything else it would just be inviting arrest/similar as you would be very unlikely to go unobserved, especially in daylight. Add in the factor of a three year old watching you and learning the behaviour...

If staff cannot retrieve the item immediately, it's very unlikely that you would not get the item back within a few days at most, so - in the meantime; tough. A lesson to be learned.

 

[matthewmacleod]

So go on then.........................do tell us what you would have done if you had dropped your expensive phone on the track and staff couldn't retrieve it? This should be good......................

If I'd dropped my 'expensive phone' on a railway track—and the staff were unable to retrieve it—I'd curse at myself for being clumsy, then accept it was my goddamn fault and I'd have to do with a cheap second-hand phone from now on.

Oh and for the record I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, I just think both sides of any argument need to be heard.

No they don't, because there is no argument to be had. It is categorically not safe to trespass on the railway.

 

[FGW_DID]

So go on then.........................do tell us what you would have done if you had dropped your expensive phone on the track and staff couldn't retrieve it? This should be good......................

Oh and for the record I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, I just think both sides of any argument need to be heard.

Well, for a start, I'd be wondering why I was in a position to drop my expensive phone somewhere the platform staff couldn't retrieve it with grabbers!

Every item I've dealt with that's been dropped: wallets, phones, headphones, paperwork and shoes, have all gone down the gap between platform and train or off the platform edge. All were retrieved after blocking the line (and adjacent line) via the controlling signaller. All were 'easily' retrieved with grabbers, certainly not going on the track. Even with the line blocked I wasn't PTS certified. Bigger items were retrieved by PTS certified yard staff from DB Schenker (if they had the time to assist).

If I dropped it elsewhere, I.e out of a train window, it would be a very expensive lesson learned.

Top tip, don't give your three year old your expensive phone to play with!

 

[Deepgreen]

Well, for a start, I'd be wondering why I was in a position to drop my expensive phone somewhere the platform staff couldn't retrieve it with grabbers!

Every item I've dealt with that's been dropped: wallets, phones, headphones, paperwork and shoes, have all gone down the gap between platform and train or off the platform edge. All were retrieved after blocking the line (and adjacent line) with grabbers, certainly not going on the track. Even with the line blocked I wasn't PTS certified. Bigger items were retrieved by PTS certified yard staff from DB Schenker (if they had the time to assist).

If I dropped it elsewhere, I.e out of a train window, it would be a very expensive lesson learned.

Top tip, don't give your three year old your expensive phone to play with!

Out of interest, on London Underground, an approaching train is often used as protection (having been warned by radio to stop short of the platform) for retrieval efforts - is this the regime on the main line as well?

 

[greaterwest]

Out of interest, on London Underground, an approaching train is often used as protection (having been warned by radio to stop short of the platform) for retrieval efforts - is this the regime on the main line as well?

Wouldn't it just be a case of having the signal(s) protecting appropriate sections of track set on danger on the mainline?

 

[PaxVobiscum]

I was at Doncaster station with my three year old yesterday and he threw my phone on the track. Very annoying, but it was what happened after that which was potentially more worrying. I was tempted to just jump down and get it...

How true.
Pity about the rest of the post.

 

[FGW_DID]

Wouldn't it just be a case of having the signal(s) protecting appropriate sections of track set on danger on the mainline?

Exactly that.

 

[Darbs]

We have near misses, accidents and sadly fatalities involving trained staff who have to be on the track as part of their daily duties. So what chance has a member of the public got who is complete unaware of the hazards or the danger they can put themselves in? As previously mentioned, pity the poor driver who sees someone on the track who shouldn't be there and the staff who may have to deal with the consequences. Plus all the delays etc....

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Wouldn't it just be a case of having the signal(s) protecting appropriate sections of track set on danger on the mainline?

Yes - problem being setting a green signal back to red adds a single yellow and if it's four colour signalling, a double yellow back up/down the line, that bunches everything up.

When someone has been on the track for a couple of minutes, got through to the signal centre and confirmed the block is no longer needed you could have a couple of stationary trains sat at successive red signals racking up the delay minutes.

 

[carriageline]

Wouldn't it just be a case of having the signal(s) protecting appropriate sections of track set on danger on the mainline?

Yep. Normally just confirm what platforms they want blocked (normally the affected one, and any adjacent line) and away you go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Harbornite]

You can't say for certain that all trains will be moving at the definitely-not-lethal speed of 10mph. What about non-timetabled trains that don't stop?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

He does have a point about H&S. Twenty years ago any passing member of the P-Way would have put his yellow jacket on, checked if it was safe/waited until it was, jumped down picked up the phone and then climbed out again. Job done.

Twenty years ago, the death toll of railway track workers was rather higher. Let's not put on the rose tinted specs just yet. It's odd that you accused me in another thread of not valuing the lives of staff just because I see the logic in changing the regs for yellow panels on train fronts, and yet you hark back to an unsafer time for workers. I don't see the the logic, but this is off topic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So go on then.........................do tell us what you would have done if you had dropped your expensive phone on the track and staff couldn't retrieve it? This should be good......................

Oh and for the record I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, I just think both sides of any argument need to be heard.

Just keep digging yourself into a hole. No one, apart from Justin, thinks your posts on this thread are logical. If your phone ends up on the tracks at a station then alert the staff if you can.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I was at an unstaffed suburban station in Adelaide, South Australia, where things are a little more 'casual' than in the UK. There was a barrow crossing with no warning lights or anti-trespass guards, etc. rather than a footbridge.

A mother with a pushchair got off a train and an item of trivial importance fell between the train and the platform. After the train had departed the mother looked up at the departure screen and noted that the next train was expected in half an hour, walked along the platform, down the ramp, onto the crossing and back along the track between the platforms to retrieve the item.

She then turned round, so that her back was to approaching trains on that line and walked back towards the barrow crossing. Even though the line was basically straight and level an empty stock move 'appeared out of nowhere' bearing down at high speed and she only just made it back to a position of safety.

Seriously scary stuff happens when people just 'nip' onto the track thinking that it will be OK.

 

[GarethJohn]

What's the procedure on an unstaffed station in a rural lightly used Station where you know the train is not due for 15 mins or more? Bear in mind the only device that you could have used to inform staff until the train arrives is now on the track and would be blocked by the train entering the station. It's a station where you need to cross the line anyway to get to the platform and would require a simple ten second walk to retrieve it.

Personally at station as busy as Doncaster I wouldn't even let go of a Three year old's hand, be playing on a phone or standing that close to the edge of a platform until my train entering it stopped. I wouldn't even dream to leave him alone on the platform while climbing down to retrieve an item off the track. This is not ''Elf and Safety gone mad''.

 

[Harbornite]

I had a look at the blog in the bio, I seem to recall reading it before after it was mentioned in another thread. The section on the APT vs Pendolino safety regs is pretty cringey and I assume Justin hadn't heard of the Grayrigg derailment. Bloody health and safety nazis, trying to reduce workplace injuries and deaths!

 

[Lockwood]

The one time I've had to go on the track, not only did we have all lines closed - the four we were on and the two joining at a junction next to us - we also had to wait for the juice to be turned off before we were allowed to even step over the plastic spikes at the platform ramp.

I will grant that this was for something other than picking up a phone from a platform, but the number of levels of protection in place there was very high.

I can't understand why anyone of sound mind would want to get out of a position of safety to retrieve an item that can be relatively easy to replace. In a fight between train and person, I would always bet on the train.

 

[Juniper Driver]

safely

He does have a point about H&S. Twenty years ago any passing member of the P-Way would have put his yellow jacket on, checked if it was safe/waited until it was, jumped down picked up the phone and then climbed out again. Job done.

There may be a reason why they changed the rules plus the average person has no idea how to cross the road from what I see.You are supposed to keep alert for some clown driving irresponsibly in a car/motorbikr/cycle...not imagine you are on the beach.

 

[al78]

So go on then.........................do tell us what you would have done if you had dropped your expensive phone on the track and staff couldn't retrieve it? This should be good......................

Oh and for the record I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with the OP, I just think both sides of any argument need to be heard.

First notify a member of staff and enquire as to whether it is possible to retrieve it. If so, then follow instructions and do what I have to do to get it back. If it is not possible to retrieveit, then accept it as a loss due to my own carelessness and buy a new phone. Similarly with a wallet (in this case contact the bank and ask for a replacement debit and credit card, and go through the proceedure to obtain a replacement driving license), or anything else I may drop onto the track. A phone is just a plastic metal object that is replaceable, it is not worth unnecessarily risking life to retrieve it. Yes, just because there are unavoidable risks in life does not mean it is reasonable to unnecessarily take risks.

It is best to hear both sides of an argument to take an informed view but that does not mean that both sides always carry equal weight. Sometimes one argument is just plain wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't understand why anyone of sound mind would want to get out of a position of safety to retrieve an item that can be relatively easy to replace.

Because not everyone believes safety is the be-all and end-all of everything. A small risk (and on a quieter, non-electrified or OHLE, line the risk *is* small - far smaller than the totally legal act of going onto a 70mph dual carriageway to retrieve something dropped from your car - and not much riskier than using an unsignalled foot crossing) to retrieve something of significant value is not entirely surprising.

I understand why the railway has the rules it has - it seeks absolute safety. But while the rules exist, and they are enforceable, which means people (me included) tend not to go on the track, I don't see why it is a problem that people don't all agree with them. I don't - but I tend to believe in freedoms over individual safety and don't believe the aim of absolute safety is necessary.

IOW, the rules are understandable, and are to be followed, but that doesn't make someone who disagrees with the basis of them "not of sound mind". If you take that line, you suggest that people in many other countries worldwide where the track is not so strongly protected are "not of sound mind". It's just different approaches.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, just because there are unavoidable risks in life does not mean it is reasonable to unnecessarily take risks.

So, do you believe that rock climbers are unreasonable? Or those who do other adrenaline sports?

Those people are choosing to take risks for a hobby, which is arguably less necessary than retrieving your wallet if you're alone in a city far from home and have no other means of getting home bar a very long walk.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Is this sort of abuse really in keeping with group guidelines?

So what would you have done if you had accidently dropped your wallet or expensive phone onto the track?

If calling someone who was seriously thinking of climbing off a platform onto a live railway line stupid is abuse then the world has gone mad.

I seriously could not think of many things that are more stupid than risking life and limb over a personal possession that is easily replaced.

As for what I would've done. I would've found a member of staff, pointed out the phone and if it couldn't have been retrieved easily, left my details so I could be contacted when it had been recovered.

 

[highdyke]

It probably would have been allowed in France or countries where platforms are lower.

We have the Victorians to thank for this. High platforms are uniquely British. Why? It was all to prevent ladies showing off a bit of leg while climbing aboard a train.

 

[neilmc]

It's funny then that whenever I go to Silverdale I HAVE to cross the track in one direction or other because there is no footbridge. I could of course check that no passenger train is due and then get mown down by nuclear flask traffic. Or I could ... err ... look and listen in both directions before crossing, what's so hard about that?

Clearly then it's deemed safe enough for passengers to cross the track in some circumstances i.e. where Network Rail or whoever is responsible for the infrastructure won't spend the money on the safety which most contributors seem to think should be utterly paramount and thus no passenger should ever have to make an intelligent risk assessment, like I have to do at Silverdale.

Of course, if you live in Australia you have to do this all the time, with dangerous snakes, spiders, crocodiles, jellyfish, even big birds, the possibility of an unexpected empty stock movement won't feature high on the average Aussie list of deadly risk.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It probably would have been allowed in France or countries where platforms are lower.

I doubt it is allowed anywhere, strictly speaking, but I suspect it would be tolerated if you were very quick about it.

 

[Lockwood]

IOW, the rules are understandable, and are to be followed, but that doesn't make someone who disagrees with the basis of them "not of sound mind". If you take that line, you suggest that people in many other countries worldwide where the track is not so strongly protected are "not of sound mind". It's just different approaches.

"Look at these fast heavy things! Let's get in their way!"
That doesn't seem like a reasonable line of thought to me.

The slip/trip hazards down there, as mentioned upthread, can change a quick journey to the track and back into a journey to the track, ending up on your face and having an unexpected outcome.

Without wanting to beat an aging H&S drum, it is important that we be risk adverse. Not risk phobic, but able to assess a situation and go "Does this seem like a good idea? Should I be doing this?"

Maybe "sound mind" was not the correct choice of words.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If calling someone who was seriously thinking of climbing off a platform onto a live railway line stupid is abuse then the world has gone mad.

It might or might not be stupid. The railway has a blanket rule, which is probably a fairly sensible approach. Breaking a rule is not necessarily stupid, but may be. Drop your phone at one of the Scottish highland stations, particularly one where the next train may be a long time off, and you're probably not taking any significant risk getting it. Do the same on the fasts on the WCML and you might as well have a death wish.

As for what I would've done. I would've found a member of staff, pointed out the phone and if it couldn't have been retrieved easily, left my details so I could be contacted when it had been recovered.

This is probably the most sensible course of action, of course.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"Look at these fast heavy things! Let's get in their way!"
That doesn't seem like a reasonable line of thought to me.

"There are fast, heavy things. I need to be careful not to get whacked by one" also works. It would work if, as I said, you decided to go onto a 70mph dual carriageway to retrieve an item, or simply to cross it. Or even walk along it. All these things are allowed.

The slip/trip hazards down there, as mentioned upthread, can change a quick journey to the track and back into a journey to the track, ending up on your face and having an unexpected outcome.

Very true, but we aren't necessarily talking about darting down in between trains running on a 2 minute frequency.

Without wanting to beat an aging H&S drum, it is important that we be risk adverse.

That is a matter of opinion. Many would disagree with that statement.

We need to be risk conscious - always to understand what we are getting ourselves into - but not necessarily risk averse

 

[AlterEgo]

Very true, but we aren't necessarily talking about darting down in between trains running on a 2 minute frequency.

It doesn't matter. You don't go onto the track. It is very simple.

 

[Justin Smith]

here we go again. :roll: HSEA gone mad init.

You cant, of course, be killed by a train moving at 5 mph can you?

The point is, that if a train was approaching someone on the tracks (say they were unconscious) at 5 or 10mph one assumes the driver would see them and stop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn't matter. You don't go onto the track. It is very simple.

That is the rule, and it must be followed. It is much easier to have a strict, standard rule.

This does not in any way detract from the point that going on to the track at a quiet rural station on a branch line, for example, is not particularly dangerous compared with many other perfectly legal activities, such as crossing a 70mph dual carriageway on the level.