Do lost Season Tickets go on working or get voided by "the system"

[coursemyhorse]

I was thinking of something today... I handed in a lost Season Ticket which still had almost a full year remaining on it. Someone had left it on the train. It would have cost thousands to buy.

I obviously would never condone this or attempt it, but assume I did not hand it in and decided to fraudulently go on using this ticket for myself for example. Would it continue to work in barriers?
Let's assuming I was able to create a fake matching ID card with my own mugshot on it, and just flashed it at any inspectors on the train who were checking tickets, and that this continued to work and that I was able to actually get to barriers every day.... would the ticket actually work in the barriers and keep working for a year?

I always thought to myself that these tickets would stop working once the owner got a replacement issued as the old one would be void. But now I'm doubting if that is possible with a basic paper ticket? I don't know how the machines or paper tickets work and how they verify if a ticket is valid so this is why I ask. Sorry if it is a silly question.

Once again, I would never attempt this and would always wish someone treat me the same and hand in my lost ticket.

 

[maniacmartin]

If it was a paper ticket, it would continue working until its expiry date. Hence the reason why you are usually only entitled to one Duplicate* for a lost ticket across the ticket's life.
With smartcard-based tickets, the operators are able to block lost tickets from working the barriers so operators are more amenable to replacing lost smartcard season tickets.

* In NR terminology 'Duplicate' means a new ticket to replace a lost original and 'Replacement' means a new ticket to replace an old one that has been handed in because it has faded or stopped working.

 

[bb21]

Barriers cannot cancel a paper ticket like that so, yes, it will continue to work.

 

[RJ]

There's no way of remotely disabling a paper ticket. The only way illegitimate use of a loss can be detected is if a ticket inspector does a proper job in checking the photocard number against that shown on the ticket.

I suspect plenty of people do buy an annual ticket, report it as lost then get a duplicate - and the railway bears the cost of that.

 

[coursemyhorse]

Yes a paper ticket. Wow. That's quite shocking. I suspect many people do attempt to use them upon finding lost tickets then? Hence the "security" of a photocard ID with any valuable paper season ticket of a week or more. How much security does that add though if you travel on routes and times where a guard never checks tickets? How easy are ID cards to fake?

What are the repercussions of attempting this in terms of penalties?

 

[bb21]

What are the repercussions of attempting this in terms of penalties?

Criminal record, fraud charges, etc.

 

[Abpj17]

Yes a paper ticket. Wow. That's quite shocking. I suspect many people do attempt to use them upon finding lost tickets then?

Randomly finding one I wouldn't have thought so. You'd have to get lucky to find a lost ticket that matched your commuting pattern! And many commuters will already have their own - valid - season tickets.

Would be a stronger case for those that include a Travelcard. But unless you start/finish outside the london zones now, these will be oyster based.

 

[coursemyhorse]

Randomly finding one I wouldn't have thought so. You'd have to get lucky to find a lost ticket that matched your commuting pattern! And many commuters will already have their own - valid - season tickets.

Would be a stronger case for those that include a Travelcard. But unless you start/finish outside the london zones now, these will be oyster based.

Good point. My own Season ticket does indeed start outside the London Zone and has a Travelcard included. I guess these would be "worth" more so to speak.

The penalties would be interesting to know, as I bet the fine is less than a lot of Season Tickets cost to buy which would further make it worthwhile to risk takers.

As you say though, you get a criminal record so...

 

[wibble]

If it was a paper ticket, it would continue working until its expiry date. Hence the reason why you are usually only entitled to one Duplicate* for a lost ticket across the ticket's life.
With smartcard-based tickets, the operators are able to block lost tickets from working the barriers so operators are more amenable to replacing lost smartcard season tickets.

* In NR terminology 'Duplicate' means a new ticket to replace a lost original and 'Replacement' means a new ticket to replace an old one that has been handed in because it has faded or stopped working.

This is incorrect - there is no limit to the number of duplicates you can have. However, TOCs can refuse a duplicate if they believe it's a fraudulent claim. Condition 39 of Conditions of Travel

 

[guilbert]

I suspect plenty of people do buy an annual ticket, report it as lost then get a duplicate - and the railway bears the cost of that.

I'd be surprised if that many people do it - I suppose you could get a second ticket for another person but the second person would have to go and get a new photo card for with their photo on and get the replacement ticket issued with that photocard number.

 

[bb21]

I'd be surprised if that many people do it - I suppose you could get a second ticket for another person but the second person would have to go and get a new photo card for with their photo on and get the replacement ticket issued with that photocard number.

... with details to match those in the database for the original ticket holder.

Slam dunk guilty verdict if caught.

 

[RJ]

I'd be surprised if that many people do it - I suppose you could get a second ticket for another person but the second person would have to go and get a new photo card for with their photo on and get the replacement ticket issued with that photocard number.

To be honest I think it more relies on the tickets not being checked properly than doing something that elaborate.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . The penalties would be interesting to know, as I bet the fine is less than a lot of Season Tickets cost to buy which would further make it worthwhile to risk takers.

As you say though, you get a criminal record so...

The fine imposed by a Court probably would be under £200, but the prosecution is quite entitled to claim compensation - and in this example a Railway Company certainly would do so. When preparing the evidence for a Prosecution, the Company would attempt to estimate the losses incurred, probably on the high end of a scale of probablilities, and would invite the Defendant to present their counter evidence if there is any, to show that the losses were lower.
Perhaps a pre-trial agreement would be reached between the parties, perhaps the Court would be asked to assess costs, and perhaps the parties would be directed to agree a schedule of losses.

But the point is, fraudulent use of a season ticket is taken very seriously, and persons convicted of fraud regularly face significant penalties (including compensation, costs, a fine and the 'victim surcharge') which can exceed the face value of the abused season ticket.

 

[Puffing Devil]

This makes the case for a National Smartcard system for Season Tickets at least. I'm pretty sure the majority will have a barrier at one end of the journey. The basic data should be readable with a basic NCF device, allowing staff to conduct random checks.

 

[Starmill]

I have confidence that there are routes with ticket checks of such paucity that people will get away with this.

It's partly a lack of staff who would check, so you may go a whole year without someone noticing, and partly circumstances. Someone who travels on long, busy trains between stations without gates could go years without this being noticed. By contrast someone travelling London - Reading in First Class will probably have a ticket check on every journey, so much more likely it will eventually be caught.

 

[jon0844]

I still get skipped on some checks because staff know me. I guess that means that I, or other 'regulars' could potentially chance their luck if they so desired.

I would be happy to have stings where ALL photo IDs are checked properly, and season tickets removed from wallets for inspection. I'd have little reason to complain (although I am sure some would) as the scale of fraud is probably a lot higher than a lot of people think or realise.

I can understand how rail staff may not wish to put out someone who is paying £3-4,000+ a year, but why not? That person must surely want revenue to be protected and not feel that someone else on the same train has avoided paying the same amount of money?

 

[guilbert]

I would be happy to have stings where ALL photo IDs are checked properly, and season tickets removed from wallets for inspection. I'd have little reason to complain (although I am sure some would) as the scale of fraud is probably a lot higher than a lot of people think or realise.

I wouldn't mind them doing it on the train but wouldn't be too impressed if they tried to thoroughly examine all tickets as people left the station!

I guess it's a question of cost/benefit for the toc - maybe it's more productive to do a cursory check of ~4 people rather than one thorough one. It still wouldn't catch everything either - you could detect obvious photocopied tickets (but I suspect they would get spotted sooner or later anyway) and check the photocard number matches but if someone is using someone else's photocard the RPI would need to be pretty sure of themselves before doing anything about it (given that most photocards are probably over 10 years old).

 

[jon0844]

Just knowing that checks are made (with accompanying posters or announcements) could put a lot of people off. It might well deter those who borrow a season ticket, for example.

 

[Wallsendmag]

There's no way of remotely disabling a paper ticket. The only way illegitimate use of a loss can be detected is if a ticket inspector does a proper job in checking the photocard number against that shown on the ticket.

I suspect plenty of people do buy an annual ticket, report it as lost then get a duplicate - and the railway bears the cost of that.

Oh ŷes there is


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[father_jack]

There's no way of remotely disabling a paper ticket. The only way illegitimate use of a loss can be detected is if a ticket inspector does a proper job in checking the photocard number against that shown on the ticket.

I suspect plenty of people do buy an annual ticket, report it as lost then get a duplicate - and the railway bears the cost of that.

The photocard is usually claimed as lost at the same time as the duplicate is issued, wouldn't you agree though ?

There was one clart once though who tried to get an encode exchange on a season already duplicated.............

And it makes me wonder why some people have an aversion to putting their ticket through the barrier (ref previous recent thread). The chances are it needs an encode exchange but it's already duplicated ?????

 

[island]

The fine imposed by a Court probably would be under £200, but the prosecution is quite entitled to claim compensation - and in this example a Railway Company certainly would do so. When preparing the evidence for a Prosecution, the Company would attempt to estimate the losses incurred, probably on the high end of a scale of probablilities, and would invite the Defendant to present their counter evidence if there is any, to show that the losses were lower.
Perhaps a pre-trial agreement would be reached between the parties, perhaps the Court would be asked to assess costs, and perhaps the parties would be directed to agree a schedule of losses.

But the point is, fraudulent use of a season ticket is taken very seriously, and persons convicted of fraud regularly face significant penalties (including compensation, costs, a fine and the 'victim surcharge') which can exceed the face value of the abused season ticket.

...to say nothing of the potential for the matter, if serious enough, to be dealt with as a case of fraud by false representation which could result in a custodial sentence.

 

[cb a1]

On the topic of proper checks, I managed to lose the photo ID part at the start of one year (I have an annual season ticket).

So, I trotted up to the ticket office the next day with a new photograph, asked for and got a new photo ID and asked for them to re-issue my season ticket with the new photo ID number.

Ticket Office: "Dinnae worry about that pal, it'll be fine."

At the time I didn't think anything more of it and travelled for nearly a whole year with a season ticket where the ID on the ticket did not match that on the photo ID.

Having read DaveNewcastle's post, I wouldn't accept that situation again.

 

[jon0844]

On the topic of proper checks, I managed to lose the photo ID part at the start of one year (I have an annual season ticket).

So, I trotted up to the ticket office the next day with a new photograph, asked for and got a new photo ID and asked for them to re-issue my season ticket with the new photo ID number.

Ticket Office: "Dinnae worry about that pal, it'll be fine."

At the time I didn't think anything more of it and travelled for nearly a whole year with a season ticket where the ID on the ticket did not match that on the photo ID.

Having read DaveNewcastle's post, I wouldn't accept that situation again.

I had the number entered wrong and was told it would be fine. I demanded a new one, as I could already imagine the grief I'd get (it was just the last two digits transposed, but still).

I also had a season ticket printed upside down, which I was almost tempted to keep in the hope it might become as valuable as a stamp one day.

Off topic, but a couple of weeks ago I was asked to present my Oyster card to staff before getting a boat, and he said I was London Underground staff. I said I wasn't, and he kept saying that I had staff ID. I tried and failed to explain that it was a photo ID for my season ticket.

He was then saying that as staff I could get a discount, and I had to keep saying I wasn't staff. Then when it looked like his next assumption was that I was therefore carrying fake ID, I was relieved that a colleague came over to explain.

I am not even sure why I was asked to present my Oyster as I hadn't even joined a queue for any boats at that point.

 

[boxy321]

My season tickets get replaced every month (monthly direct debit, but costs the same as an annual one). Therefore if I misplace them, whoever might try and fraudulently use them will on average get only 2 weeks of travel, even if they forge the photocard.

I wonder how much prevention of fraud due to the above offsets the cost of sending out my tickets each month?

 

[amateur]

I had the number entered wrong and was told it would be fine. I demanded a new one, as I could already imagine the grief I'd get (it was just the last two digits transposed, but still).

I also had a season ticket printed upside down, which I was almost tempted to keep in the hope it might become as valuable as a stamp one day.

Off topic, but a couple of weeks ago I was asked to present my Oyster card to staff before getting a boat, and he said I was London Underground staff. I said I wasn't, and he kept saying that I had staff ID. I tried and failed to explain that it was a photo ID for my season ticket.

He was then saying that as staff I could get a discount, and I had to keep saying I wasn't staff. Then when it looked like his next assumption was that I was therefore carrying fake ID, I was relieved that a colleague came over to explain.

I am not even sure why I was asked to present my Oyster as I hadn't even joined a queue for any boats at that point.

Would yo want to work for London Underground?