Do Germans make the best products?

[gordonthemoron]

almost right, except the best beer is Belgian (and I'm not talking Stella)

 

[TGV]

"The best trains are clearly Siemens". Can you please expand on this with some facts and irrefutable non-subjective evidence?

Oh wait, I've just seen you post that the best cars and drums are German too so I get it now. It's a joke right?

 

[jon0844]

I remember a friend who worked for BMW's ad agency, and how the main remit was to ensure you always kept repeating the belief that German cars were the best.

And if said enough times, people do believe it.

Now, to be honest, I don't think German cars are bad (although VW have really dropped in quality with each successive revision of the Golf IMO) but I still think a lot of it comes down to very slick marketing.

Mind you, when the Ford Focus was shown to be the most reliable car I guess it may prove the point given they were built in Germany at the time!

 

[j0hn0]

Mind you, when the Ford Focus was shown to be the most reliable car I guess it may prove the point given they were built in Germany at the time!

exactly this, people say it because it's true!

In response to TGV, how many countries have ordered the Siemens Velaro?

In terms of technical capabilities, German trains cannot be beaten. I cannot stand their seating height and pitch (I cannot travel for more than 1 hour in Germany) but perhaps I can allude to the most reliable train in the country being German also?

That's pretty solid evidence IMO, ie THE most ordered high speed train in the world, THE most reliable train on our network of thousands of classes.

For anything else, I refer you to my other experiences.....

I had old audis for years and they NEVER went wrong. I played Sonor Delite drums for 5 years and they were the best sounding, best built drums ever. Living in Germany for a year I had the pleasures of their beer purity law, which unless you actually go there and try it, you won't believe me.

Basically, the Germans know exactly how to make the best products, and, more importantly, know exactly how to exploit them.

If you're too blind to see that, then that is your problem, is it any wonder that so many companies try and copy the Germans?

 

[WestCoast]

I cannot stand their seating height and pitch (I cannot travel for more than 1 hour in Germany) ?

Eh? The seating height and pitch seems absolutely fine to me, although the pitch will depend on the stock...

 

[DiscoStu]

almost right, except the best beer is Belgian (and I'm not talking Stella)

I disagree, I think the best beer IS German ... Augustiner. Amazing beer.

 

[j0hn0]

Eh? The seating height and pitch seems absolutely fine to me, although the pitch will depend on the stock...

Yeah, I just find German seats too low and the backs poorly angled.

I can travel for 2 hours on a TGV without problems, ICE and S-Bahn no chance.

When will trains start offering lumbar supports? :cry:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I disagree, I think the best beer IS German ... Augustiner. Amazing beer.

It's Franziskaner Naturtrueb Weissen or Schloesser Alt for me

 

[WestCoast]

Yeah, I just find German seats too low and the backs poorly angled.

You've yet to experience a package charter flight, except without a pitch at all......

 

[TGV]

exactly this, people say it because it's true!

In response to TGV, how many countries have ordered the Siemens Velaro?

In terms of technical capabilities, German trains cannot be beaten. I cannot stand their seating height and pitch (I cannot travel for more than 1 hour in Germany) but perhaps I can allude to the most reliable train in the country being German also?

That's pretty solid evidence IMO, ie THE most ordered high speed train in the world, THE most reliable train on our network of thousands of classes.

For anything else, I refer you to my other experiences.....

I had old audis for years and they NEVER went wrong. I played Sonor Delite drums for 5 years and they were the best sounding, best built drums ever. Living in Germany for a year I had the pleasures of their beer purity law, which unless you actually go there and try it, you won't believe me.

Basically, the Germans know exactly how to make the best products, and, more importantly, know exactly how to exploit them.

If you're too blind to see that, then that is your problem, is it any wonder that so many companies try and copy the Germans?

You've totally fallen into my trap. You've come out with "They're the best" when what you mean is "they're my favourite". There are plenty of other manufacurers of cars, trains and drums that can claim exactly what you just did!

"In terms of technical capabilities, German trains cannot be beaten"

For every example you can think of, I can guarantee you I will think of another, so it will prove nothing. Just because something is "the most ordered" or "the most popular" - does that make it the "best"? Of course not. You can't quantify it like that.

Yes a Siemens Desiro was the UK's most reliable train last year. But what about the other years? What about other countries?

I had a Premier kit for FIFTEEN years and it never had ANY problems. Cost a bloody site less than Sonor too, sounded every bit as good and the hardware was much chunkier but like BMW's you're probably fooled into thinking they're better just because they cost more. I've owned THREE BMW's - I thought they were great cars, but I have to be 100% honest: TWO of them had to go back to the garage within the first month for reliability problems and the third went back after a year because of a technical recall. I owned an 8 year old Land Rover Defender that I threw all kinds of sh*t at for years, maintained myself with varying degrees of attention and it NEVER failed. The beemers spent their whole life cruising on motorways, but one still developed an engine rattle that BMW themselves acknowledged in 3 visits, but could not fix!

German superiority my @rse.

I've never owned a Honda, but they seem to come top in reliability surveys all over the place, as do Lexus.

 

[WestCoast]

Please lets not get into a Germany's products vs. an other countries product debate.

What matters in this debate is who is perceived to have the highest quality. That is Germany and little more can be said. That's what translates into orders and prosperity.

As for a Siemens Velaro vs TGV debate. Well, most of my journeys with a "TGV" are on Thalys on the Amsterdam/Cologne - Brussels route (which is quite nice, since it is SNCF, SNCB and DB working together!) and both the PBA and PBKA sets are impressive trains.

You can, of course, opt to take a Velaro (ICE3) on the Cologne route. If you are asking who wins on interior ambiance and overall experience, I'd say the ICE every time (and I've heard this from others too!). You simply cannot beat the lounge with a forward view - it's brilliant!

 

[TGV]

Please lets not get into a Germany's products vs. an other countries product debate.

What matters in this debate is who is perceived to have the highest quality. That is Germany and little more can be said. That's what translates into orders and prosperity.

That is also my point. You have said perception is the key. I agree. Then you've said "That is Germany and little more can be said". Which is *your* perception. I've worked in engineering for nearly 15 years and many of those in close conjunction with German companies (Mercedes Benz and Siemens being the main two) and my perception is different. So surely plenty more can be said?

Like you said though I'm not going to make a stand AGAINST German engineering - that would be wrong (and foolish). I'm making the point that perception is reality to the individual, and everyone's experience is different. But to come on and claim Germany is best at this and that - "the end" - is equally wrong and foolish. How can anyone say something like "Germany makes better cars than Japan" for example? It shows immaturity and short sightedness.

 

[WestCoast]

That is also my point. You have said perception is the key. I agree. Then you've said "That is Germany and little more can be said". Which is *your* perception. I've worked in engineering for nearly 15 years and many of those in close conjunction with German companies (Mercedes Benz and Siemens being the main two) and my perception is different. So surely plenty more can be said?

I'm talking popular perception here - so the average person on a British High Street. Not an insider or someone knows some reality view.

If you did an unscientific survey, and I'm picking the other country as France as that is one people have strong opinions on, "Which are better? German or French Cars?", I'm willing to bet the former would win. You could probably insert any country as the latter and get a similar result.

Does that mean they have the best quality? Absolutely not. Does that mean, very generally, that people have a higher perception of quality? Perhaps.

 

[TGV]

My point is that you've jumped on a nothing comment made by somebody, and asked him to provide "irrefutable non-subjective evidence" to back up his claim, and then set a "trap" for him to fall into.

I mean, nobody gave a f*** that he said Siemens clearly make the best trains - I think we all understood what he meant.

Are you a scientist by any chance?

No I am not. He made a comment which I disagree with - we can continue to disagree all day long as we probably will - it happens all the time on this forum.

I am an engineer with experience of Siemens railway engineering. I think that makes me qualified to comment on this. Or do you have a problem with that too?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm talking popular perception here - so the average person on a British High Street. Not an insider or someone knows some reality view.

If you did an unscientific survey, and I'm picking the other country as France as that is one people have strong opinions on, "Which are better? German or French Cars?", I'm willing to bet the former would win.

Agreed.

 

[WestCoast]

You mentioned the iPhone. Apple have a strange quality to make people giddy and excitable about their products, and they are good products, I'll admit that. However, the iPhone is overpriced for what it is. For a lower price, HTC and BlackBerry will sell you something which has all the features of an iPhone and is better quality! Not that the iPhone fans will agree.

 

[TGV]

Again I agree. I deleted my iPhone comment because I thought I was veering off on another rant! But yes you've summed it up brilliantly. To make it topical I'd say Siemens are the iPhones of trains!

 

[MCR247]

You mentioned the iPhone. Apple have a strange quality to make people giddy and excitable about their products, and they are good products, I'll admit that. However, the iPhone is overpriced for what it is. For a lower price, HTC and BlackBerry will sell you something which has all the features of an iPhone and is better quality! Not that the iPhone fans will agree.

Blackberry?! The only reason they are successful on the highstreet is because of BBM, and the fact that everyone has one because of BBM. I like apple, although I still haven't thought of a reason why I would need an iPad...

 

[jon0844]

I am a serious Apple fanboy when it comes to Mac, and I also own a 4G iPod touch - but the iPhone just doesn't do it for me, and the iPhone 4 had a major design flaw that was well publicised - but now played down after Steve Jobs did his, somewhat desperate, attempt to show how all phones can lose signal and it's really the fault of the network!

But I know how much BMW drilled into its staff how important it was to promote the message that German cars are the best. In fact, the perception is so strong that it has enabled Audi, Mercedes and VW to all play on it - so it's not like anyone immediately thinks BMW is better than Mercedes - even though there's plenty of rivalry in Germany where they're considered fairly normal.

They're not bad cars of course, but saying they're the best - like saying 'the iPhone is the best phone ever' is silly. There could always be something at least equally good, if not better, if you looked hard enough.

PS. I too see no reason for an iPad. Far too limiting, especially when the screen on an iPhone is virtually the same resolution (just smaller pixels, obviously). I have four tablets around me at this minute and can't see a need of any of them - much as I try to convince myself. However, I carry my MacBook Air almost everywhere I go and it's awesome - I really cannot recommend it highly enough to everyone that cares to listen (and those that don't!).

 

[WestCoast]

Blackberry?! The only reason they are successful on the highstreet is because of BBM, and the fact that everyone has one because of BBM. I like apple, although I still haven't thought of a reason why I would need an iPad...

Absolutely not, BlackBerries are the original "smartphones". I like them, they aren't gimmicky (well, apart from BBM as you say) and they are a lot more sturdy than iPhones. Battery life better. The BlackBerry Torch is rated highly and respected.

In short, they are more like a real, serious phones that are practical beyond "Apps" and other "toys"...

 

[jon0844]

I don't use a BB as my main phone, but like my MBA, I usually have my Bold in a bag for when I need to quickly check (and reply) to emails, or social networking for work.

Touchscreen phones can't compete - even though they're fine for small amounts of text input.

Anyway - I must stop adding to this now it's way off topic!

 

[WestCoast]

Touchscreen phones can't compete - even though they're fine for small amounts of text input.

I agree, you can't beat a QWERTY keyboard with buttons...

Anyway, back to trains, rather than phones! A criticism of the French (and Spanish) rail systems is that they place too much emphasis on the (excellent) high speed links, and too little effort is put into infrequent, rural services.

This is a concern if Eurostar and SNCF want to grab more of the regional France market, of which airlines like FlyBe somewhat dominate.

 

[andythompson]

You've totally fallen into my trap. You've come out with "They're the best" when what you mean is "they're my favourite". There are plenty of other manufacurers of cars, trains and drums that can claim exactly what you just did!

"In terms of technical capabilities, German trains cannot be beaten"

For every example you can think of, I can guarantee you I will think of another, so it will prove nothing. Just because something is "the most ordered" or "the most popular" - does that make it the "best"? Of course not. You can't quantify it like that.

Yes a Siemens Desiro was the UK's most reliable train last year. But what about the other years? What about other countries?

I had a Premier kit for FIFTEEN years and it never had ANY problems. Cost a bloody site less than Sonor too, sounded every bit as good and the hardware was much chunkier but like BMW's you're probably fooled into thinking they're better just because they cost more. I've owned THREE BMW's - I thought they were great cars, but I have to be 100% honest: TWO of them had to go back to the garage within the first month for reliability problems and the third went back after a year because of a technical recall. I owned an 8 year old Land Rover Defender that I threw all kinds of sh*t at for years, maintained myself with varying degrees of attention and it NEVER failed. The beemers spent their whole life cruising on motorways, but one still developed an engine rattle that BMW themselves acknowledged in 3 visits, but could not fix!

German superiority my @rse.

I've never owned a Honda, but they seem to come top in reliability surveys all over the place, as do Lexus.

bmw's where always being brought back to the garage i worked at while doing my aprenticship and the main reasons where either engine failure ( piston problems mostly) and key fobs either not working or the owners getting that annoyed trying to start a deisil in a cold morning that the key fob ended up being smashed in side the ignition hole


i only worked there for 8 month doing panel beating, and in that eight month i only saw one land rover brought back, owner had hit a deer at some speed and well, as much as the car wanted to continue, she thought the smell of deer flesh was rancid, and was enogh for her to book a repair,

i see that some people's view to German made products are " wow there my Favorite no on can beat them! "


but British items are built cheep and last an eternity, german products are built to last as long as the check clears, and then back for repair.

siemens are an ok company though, in bradford there class 333's still look as good as new which is a added bonus for me

 

[j0hn0]

stray away from LGV and the services in the uk are usually better!

Please back up your claim with irrefutable non-subjective evidence!!!!

Also, can you please back up your claim about Sonor with irrefutable non-subjective evidence?

If you've never owned one of their kits, how would you know? I've OWNED premier signias, pearl masters, tama starclassic, dw collectors, mapex orion and that is where I got my opinion from.

 

[TGV]

I have played sonor kits too. Nothing wrong with them but they didn't sound any better than a pearl or tama. Why do I need evidence when at no point did I make wild claims such as yours?! "everyone copies the Germans" oh please.

 

[jon0844]

Just ask someone who is a major fan of something to give some examples of things that aren't perfect.

 

[j0hn0]

(Note: split from DB running on HS1 topic)

Süddeutsche Zeitung are reporting that the IGC approved the safety standards for the ICEs to run through the tunnel.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/U5a38b/68020/Der-ICE-darf-nach-London-fahre.html

ace, that'll shut them frenchists up.

Are we now beginning to see the full takeover of the Germans?

The best trains are clearly Siemens, DB own most of UK Freight and Passenger operations, the best Cars are German, the best beer is German and the best Drums are German.

I wonder how our liberals feel about this protectionism?