Do external candidates stand a chance?

[ComUtoR]

I work on a heritage railway and I have done for a while I’ve never thought about going for the mainline I would be considered too dangerous and an operational liability by them from what I’ve heard mainline do like rookies because they are faster easier and cheaper to train than somebody like me would be

Perception is not reality.

As posted above by @Lumpa6259 ; it is how you apply those skills gained in your sector that will determine how successful you are. You have plenty of experience to apply and have a proven track record of working in a safety critical environment.

There is no free pass. You need to work at it and put a lot of effort in to what is a very competitive market. I think a lot of people falsely believe that because they have a specific background they are guaranteed a job. It also works vice versa. People belive that because they are in a specific industry or have a specific background that they would get rejected or that they don't have the required skills.

The barriers to entry shouldn't start with yourself. Meet the criteria, apply, push yourself, make a decent effort, and if you fail; reapply.

 

[Steam Man]

Perception is not reality.

As posted above by @Lumpa6259 ; it is how you apply those skills gained in your sector that will determine how successful you are. You have plenty of experience to apply and have a proven track record of working in a safety critical environment.

There is no free pass. You need to work at it and put a lot of effort in to what is a very competitive market. I think a lot of people falsely believe that because they have a specific background they are guaranteed a job. It also works vice versa. People belive that because they are in a specific industry or have a specific background that they would get rejected or that they don't have the required skills.

The barriers to entry shouldn't start with yourself. Meet the criteria, apply, push yourself, make a decent effort, and if you fail; reapply.

I don’t believe that I should be given a free pass at all I’ve worked in a sector where I’ve safety drummed into me from day one. one example I can give is that my train was leaving a station because we still have manual doors somebody opened the door and was trying to get on the train when it was moving I hit the emergency brakes to stop the train to stop them getting badly hurt and if faced with the same situation I would do it all over again and I now teach trainees as well.

 

[Bucephalus]

You might also consider HS2 contractors. At Euston Station, Costain Skanska are doing the early works and Mace Dragados will do the main works.

Thanks for that. I'll check them out. Anything to get my hands dirty and get into the system

 

[Ladder23]

I got with NR after around 15 attempts. I did actually make a appearance at the depot where I got the job beforehand and introduced myself. I left on good terms after a good chat with the manager and left my name etc.. I am a firm believer that’s the trick which worked for me.

A year on x3 vacancies arose and I got called in for interview and it was happy days from there. I know covid is a big issue now so it’s not exactly possible... but moral is dont ever give up..

 

[Jlob2804]

People like platform staff or guards at other TOCs don't surprise me at all. Perhaps I'm being inpatient. My background is mainly office work and i don't see too many people say they have come from that background on here but Im happy to be corrected.

There's a driver at my depot who used to work at an insurance company and someone was on my training who worked in ship sales. I think it's how you sell yourself, like people have already said.

 

[whoosh]

A non-exhaustative list of some of the previous rôles Train Drivers I've known have held:

Gas fitter
Electrician
Carpet fitter
Fork lift truck instructor at a tyre factory
Insurance broker
Bank manager
Bus driver
McDonald's worker
McDonald's manager
Bureaux de Change manager
Laboratory technician
Teacher
Telecoms engineer
Butcher
Newspaper hotline operator
Currys/PC World shopfloor worker
Airline Cabin crew
Airline first officer
Chauffeur
Self employed domestic appliance repair man

Some of those would have obvious safety procedures to adhere to. But others won't. Maybe they were able to use examples outside work.

If you want to work on the railway, keep trying. Even in good times, railway recruitment is frustrating and slow, with lots of competition. The hard times ahead from the pandemic fall out, will mean even more competition. Do your best, and keep looking to refine each application. Keep looking for vacancies and keep applying.

 

[mstrwvr]

I'm starting my first railway job a week on Monday, as a Trainee Conductor, and this was the third railway job I applied for. For the last twenty years I've worked in the charity sector. Don't give up!

 

[Steam Man]

I'm starting my first railway job a week on Monday, as a Trainee Conductor, and this was the third railway job I applied for. For the last twenty years I've worked in the charity sector. Don't give up!

I’ve been for about 3 mainline jobs but I backed out of all of them

 

[Intermodal]

I’ve been for about 3 mainline jobs but I backed out of all of them

Thanks for the information. Not sure who asked..?

this is the reason why I won’t use staff travel or a travel warrant issued by the company I will pay the full fare even if I’m an employee because I don’t want to get penalised for using it by Revenue Protection.

You posted this recently in another thread. In the interests of making sure that people can trust your advice and postings, are you able to clarify which of your posts are true? In some threads you are stating you have never considered going for a railway job. Later in the same thread you are saying that you have tried 3 times and then pulled out. And then in the quote above you are talking about your staff travel facilities that you don't want to use. Perhaps you could tell us which of your posts are lies?

I work on a heritage railway and I have done for a while I’ve never thought about going for the mainline to be honest

This quote from earlier in this very same thread directly contradicts your post above.

Perhaps if you are going to post contradictory items over and over it would be better for everyone if you didn't post at all, or at least got your story straight?

 

[Steam Man]

I'm starting my first railway job a week on Monday, as a Trainee Conductor, and this was the third railway job I applied for. For the last twenty years I've worked in the charity sector. Don't give up!

Well done you I don’t think I would get very far if I tried with my heritage railway experience and also being a trainer

 

[Intermodal]

Well done you I don’t think I would get very far if I tried with my heritage railway experience and also being a trainer

I’m getting called a trainer when I don’t think I am one I’m just worried that me training people isn’t going to help me get a job I just don’t want to be at a disadvantage from it.

So are you, or are you not a trainer?
Also, do you, or do you not want a mainline job? Or do you already have one?
Very confusing.

 

[Manda2194]

A non-exhaustative list of some of the previous rôles Train Drivers I've known have held:

Gas fitter
Electrician
Carpet fitter
Fork lift truck instructor at a tyre factory
Insurance broker
Bank manager
Bus driver
McDonald's worker
McDonald's manager
Bureaux de Change manager
Laboratory technician
Teacher
Telecoms engineer
Butcher
Newspaper hotline operator
Currys/PC World shopfloor worker
Airline Cabin crew
Airline first officer
Chauffeur
Self employed domestic appliance repair man

Some of those would have obvious safety procedures to adhere to. But others won't. Maybe they were able to use examples outside work.

If you want to work on the railway, keep trying. Even in good times, railway recruitment is frustrating and slow, with lots of competition. The hard times ahead from the pandemic fall out, will mean even more competition. Do your best, and keep looking to refine each application. Keep looking for vacancies and keep applying.

I'm starting my first railway job a week on Monday, as a Trainee Conductor, and this was the third railway job I applied for. For the last twenty years I've worked in the charity sector. Don't give up!

Thanks guys this is all very good to know. It gets my faith back a bit. Perhaps I'm being too negative.Obviously, its been a crazy year with Covid so there has been a lot fewer vacancies than normal.

 

[ILoveLamp]

I recently went through the train driver recruitment process after fortunately getting through a sift. Initially had a DMI via teams which was very relaxed, friendly and positive. Paper assessment day was fairly straightforward after plenty of practice and of the candidates I spoke to there was police and ex-military (I think close quarter protection or similar). At the computer and MMI I was the only candidate with no connection to the railways, one was a signaller, one a guard with the same company and another who’s partner was a Driver Manager Trainer (I think) for another company. Computer tests were strange and I thought I’d failed, but I was called to sit the MMI.. it’s here where my experience seems to differ from others who sat with the same trainers. Mine wasn’t friendly, I really felt on the back foot all the time. There was negative comments about my distance from the depot despite being within the distance allowed, an early comment asking if I knew the Driver Manager when I mentioned the DMI briefly and then near the end of the interview asked who I knew who worked for the company. I said I knew no one of which they replied, ‘oh, most people know someone who works here’ in a really negative way. I get sent to customer complaints occasionally at work after another engineer has upset the customer, I think because I mainly get very good feedback from my work, and this felt like I had walked into one of those situations where I was starting on a negative but no matter what I did I didn’t seem to be able to turn it around, unlike at work. Obviously found out later I had failed that part...pretty gutted and a life lost for what seemed a pre-conceived outcome that I couldn’t change, or at least it felt that way. I’m not sure the others got through but they were internal, or a internal to the industry unlike myself. Sorry for the long post

 

[Intermodal]

I recently went through the train driver recruitment process after fortunately getting through a sift. Initially had a DMI via teams which was very relaxed, friendly and positive. Paper assessment day was fairly straightforward after plenty of practice and of the candidates I spoke to there was police and ex-military (I think close quarter protection or similar). At the computer and MMI I was the only candidate with no connection to the railways, one was a signaller, one a guard with the same company and another who’s partner was a Driver Manager Trainer (I think) for another company. Computer tests were strange and I thought I’d failed, but I was called to sit the MMI.. it’s here where my experience seems to differ from others who sat with the same trainers. Mine wasn’t friendly, I really felt on the back foot all the time. There was negative comments about my distance from the depot despite being within the distance allowed, an early comment asking if I knew the Driver Manager when I mentioned the DMI briefly and then near the end of the interview asked who I knew who worked for the company. I said I knew no one of which they replied, ‘oh, most people know someone who works here’ in a really negative way. I get sent to customer complaints occasionally at work after another engineer has upset the customer, I think because I mainly get very good feedback from my work, and this felt like I had walked into one of those situations where I was starting on a negative but no matter what I did I didn’t seem to be able to turn it around, unlike at work. Obviously found out later I had failed that part...pretty gutted and a life lost for what seemed a pre-conceived outcome that I couldn’t change, or at least it felt that way. I’m not sure the others got through but they were internal, or a internal to the industry unlike myself. Sorry for the long post

How much research have you done into the MMI? The purpose of this interview is to see how you react under pressure. The way that the assessor was acting was quite intentional and they behaved in a similar manner towards me when I sat mine.

They try and put you on edge and make you think that you're saying the wrong thing and that your answers are no good. That's how the interview works. The whole idea is to stick to your guns and not get affected by their line of questioning which I assume they have decided you didn't manage to do.

Better luck next time.

 

[ILoveLamp]

How much research have you done into the MMI? The purpose of this interview is to see how you react under pressure. The way that the assessor was acting was quite intentional and they behaved in a similar manner towards me when I sat mine.

They try and put you on edge and make you think that you're saying the wrong thing and that your answers are no good. That's how the interview works. The whole idea is to stick to your guns and not get affected by their line of questioning which I assume they have decided you didn't manage to do.

Better luck next time.

It was a learning experience for sure, and one that I took valuable information away to build upon for next time. I was just thrown by others who said how friendly theirs was unlike mine, and the asking of who I knew who worked there seemed very 1980’s. It’s done, at least I have a pass recorded for the other elements which I may be able to carry forward, TOC/FOC depending, and hopefully just have to prep for a re-run of the MMI.

 

[PaulBusDriver]

How much research have you done into the MMI? The purpose of this interview is to see how you react under pressure. The way that the assessor was acting was quite intentional and they behaved in a similar manner towards me when I sat mine.

They try and put you on edge and make you think that you're saying the wrong thing and that your answers are no good. That's how the interview works. The whole idea is to stick to your guns and not get affected by their line of questioning which I assume they have decided you didn't manage to do.

Better luck next time.

My MMI was exactly the same, I went in and smiled a lot, gave my answers and emphasised why I was right, being as positive as I could. I think you have to try and focus on the fact that they want to see how you can cope with pressure, even if it seems like they are being irrational or treating you with contempt. Im lucky that I get treated like that a lot in my line of work

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Is the interview a bit like 'good cop, bad cop?'

 

[Intermodal]

Is the interview a bit like 'good cop, bad cop?'

I'd say it's just the bad cop part! They just pick everything apart in an meaningless and annoying way.

For example, I used a scenario about a car. The assessor interrupted me mid sentence and said "What speed were you travelling at?", so I said I wasn't sure the exact speed but roughly 60mph. "Why aren't you sure what speed?" "I didn't consider it important for the scenario I'm about to tell you" "Why isn't it important?"

That sort of thing continued throughout the whole interview. Just keep calm, answer the questions and smile while continuing with your examples.

They also asked me the same question several times, at some points. I'd answer it, continue, then they'd ask the same question word for word again. For want of a better phrase, I think they are just trying to **** you up.

I am led to believe the interview is much less about what you say in your answers and rather more about how you say it.

 

[PaulBusDriver]

I'd say it's just the bad cop part! They just pick everything apart in an meaningless and annoying way.

For example, I used a scenario about a car. The assessor interrupted me mid sentence and said "What speed were you travelling at?", so I said I wasn't sure the exact speed but roughly 60mph. "Why aren't you sure what speed?" "I didn't consider it important for the scenario I'm about to tell you" "Why isn't it important?"

That sort of thing continued throughout the whole interview. Just keep calm, answer the questions and smile while continuing with your examples.

They also asked me the same question several times, at some points. I'd answer it, continue, then they'd ask the same question word for word again. For want of a better phrase, I think they are just trying to **** you up.

I am led to believe the interview is much less about what you say in your answers and rather more about how you say it.

I can see how knowing the speed you were travelling would be important, as far as safety is concerned, but id be minded to answer "below the speed limit for the road".

 

[Fat Gaz]

I had my 3rd interview with NR last week. For the other two interviews the feedback was brilliant however I was told some other candidates performed better. Heard from a source that internals were offered the jobs. Just wondering if externals ever stand a chance against internals.
Apologies if this has been asked in a different thread. Cheers.

I'm an external so yes, we do stand a chance.

I am led to believe the interview is much less about what you say in your answers and rather more about how you say it.

I would echo that. I would suggest the interviewers are looking for a particular type of person so the way that you speak, react to interruption, react to pressure (rejecting answers - give me another etc.) the way that you conduct yourself (not waving arms around etc) are all signs that tell them whether you can/cannot work under pressure.

For the person on the other side of the desk, I guess they are looking for their next investment. I would imagine they're not going to give out trainee places to people who give them any doubts as to their ability to cope with what they are about to be put through as trainees and/or productive drivers. That would apply equally to internals as well as externals.

 

[craigybagel]

It's worth pointing out that external candidates can be preferable for companies - for every internal candidate they give a job to, it means they have to run yet another recruitment campaign to replace that candidate in their old job! And if there's already a shortage of people in that role, sending one or more of them driving could make a bad situation when worse. Also, at some TOCs internal trainees who's salary in their original role was higher then the salary of a trainee driver get to keep the higher rate of pay.

So that in turn begs the question: why recruit internally at all? I assume it's two fold: recruitment is always a gamble, you never know how someone is going to perform until they're actually doing the job, and given how long training can take for some roles (4 to 5 months for a guard, 9 months to a year for a driver at my TOC) it's an expensive process to get wrong. With internals they can already see your record, speak to your manager, get a much better idea of what kind of person you are. It also acts as motivation - whilst some employees are happy to stay in the same role for ever, there will always be plenty of others who want to move on to other jobs and who can see that performing well in they're existing job will help in that.

TLDR version - companies have plenty of reasons to recruit both internal and external candidates, and at most TOCs being a member of one or the other group shouldn't stand in your way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2020 ==

I work on a heritage railway and I have done for a while I’ve never thought about going for the mainline I would be considered too dangerous and an operational liability by them from what I’ve heard mainline do like rookies because they are faster easier and cheaper to train than somebody like me would be

Nonsense. There are plenty of railway staff who also work on Heritage Railways, many of whom were working there before they came to the national network. One of the driver trainers at our place started out on Heritage years before he came to us - the fact he's now a trainer shows how much confidence the company have in him.

The railway is open to all who show the right attitude and can demonstrate the right skills.