DMU cascades and Micro fleets

[Chrisgr31]

According to the new franchise documentation by Dec 2016 the Uckfield line is required to have 40 vehicles arriving in London between 07:00 and 09:00 exactly double what arrives there now.

So what stock will provide this service?

 

[Class172]

The service north of Edinburgh is fairly token (the WCML service to Dundee/ Aberdeen was withdrawn a few years ago and nobody seemed to notice - it never seems to feature in those far fetched lists of old services that people want to reinstate).

Bi-mode IEP is the answer for most of XC though.

I realise the original plan was scrapped but in stead of ordering many more IEPs, should it not get to a point in the future, say by 2020, we ought to look again at creating bi-mode EDMUs from the voyager fleet. Otherwise, we will end up with a pile of 20 year old diesel express trains, that have then been kicked off their ideal routes; when we could convert them so they can use the electrification?

 

[Peter Sarf]

On the subject of electrification (or lack of it) at the extremities. I remind that the Great Western Main Line will quite soon have something in common with the East Coast Main Line. Once the infills suggested/hoped-for happen on the Cross Country core (Sheffield-ECML, Brminham-Derby then Bromsgrove-Bristol) the CC/XC route will also have something in common with the first two routes.

I have often thought that a Bi-mode does not need to be that fast on diesel as, if it was important, the relevant parts of the route would justify electrification anyway. Well it makes sense IF only it was a fair world !. It also occurs to me that as the core of Cross Country is overcrowded it is tempting to treat services beyond Edinburgh or Plymouth as separate connections. A bit simplistic but I think it needs thinking about. The option I am thinking of is that the existing Voyagers could spend more time at the extremities with a Pure electric train for the cores. If its worth keeping through services then Project Thor could be resurrected for the Voyagers to make them bi-mode AND then new pure electric trains provided on the more frequent core. I think building more and more bi-modes is a bit wasteful when the Voyagers are available soon. Otherwise I worry that the Voyagers are not really suitable on some of the alternative routes suggested for them (as someone said earlier a 4 car Voyager has less seats than a 3 car 158). Just some excuses/brain-storming for what to do with the big intercity DMUs.

EDIT :- Class172 - you beat me to it just !. Succinctly put btw.

According to the new franchise documentation by Dec 2016 the Uckfield line is required to have 40 vehicles arriving in London between 07:00 and 09:00 exactly double what arrives there now.

So what stock will provide this service?

I wonder if that requirement would justify electrification of this island of diesel ?.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I realise the original plan was scrapped but instead of ordering many more IEPs, should it not get to a point in the future, say by 2020, we ought to look again at creating bi-mode EDMUs from the voyager fleet. Otherwise, we will end up with a pile of 20 year old diesel express trains, that have then been kicked off their ideal routes; when we could convert them so they can use the electrification?

The problem being that the older the existing 22x vehicles get, the less viable any conversion becomes. With hindsight, sticking with the Cross-Country HSTs and LHCS (though with a more comprehensive overhaul & perhaps new locomotives) may have been less wasteful way of improving the XC services- though it wouldn't have grabbed the headlines that Mr. Branson craved! Besides no-one on this forum could have forseen the electrification plans now in place fifteen years ago. The future of some of the Voyagers/Meridians may well involve regearing or removing some of the engines to make them more cost-effective for slower routes. Failing that, I wouldn't be massively surprised if some end up being sold overseas.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

According to the new franchise documentation by Dec 2016 the Uckfield line is required to have 40 vehicles arriving in London between 07:00 and 09:00 exactly double what arrives there now.

So what stock will provide this service?

170s from somewhere else would be the desired solution.
Not easy to see where they might come from though.
Or maybe 166s from GW after Oxford/Newbury electrification?

 

[tbtc]

According to the new franchise documentation by Dec 2016 the Uckfield line is required to have 40 vehicles arriving in London between 07:00 and 09:00 exactly double what arrives there now.

So what stock will provide this service?

8x 172s from the GOBLIN?

I realise the original plan was scrapped but in stead of ordering many more IEPs, should it not get to a point in the future, say by 2020, we ought to look again at creating bi-mode EDMUs from the voyager fleet. Otherwise, we will end up with a pile of 20 year old diesel express trains, that have then been kicked off their ideal routes; when we could convert them so they can use the electrification?

Ideally we would have had Project Thor - making Voyagers run under the wires and also giving them extra coaches - no argument there.

But the Voyagers are over a decade old now, and will be over half way through their life before sufficient XC lines are electrified to make the best of bi-mode, which limits the economic viability of it.

170s from somewhere else would be the desired solution.
Not easy to see where they might come from though

9x 170s from TPE (non standard in the north of England)? Presumably they'd be the first units given up by the TPE franchise once Blackpool/ Huddersfield etc are electrified.

 

[Qwerty133]

153s won't be making it past DDA in their current form is said often enough on this forum, but then each time these threads on cascades come up the biggest operator of 153s is always left out of the cascades.
EMT will NEED some more stock if 153s can't continue in their current form past 2019 as there physically wouldn't be enough trains to operate all the services.

 

[northwichcat]

8x 172s from the GOBLIN?

9x 170s from TPE (non standard in the north of England)? Presumably they'd be the first units given up by the TPE franchise once Blackpool/ Huddersfield etc are electrified.

Maybe if LM get extra 172s then they'll release 170s to another operator.

When National Express had the Anglia franchise they suggested to DfT that they would be willing to swap their 156s for 170s but people have commented on the 170s not being suitable for the class 156 Anglia routes.

 

[TheGrew]

Would there be an export market for the Voyagers, maybe Eastern Europe or the States basically anywhere with a the 'right' sort of line.

 

[jopsuk]

Unlikely. High platform/small loading guage isn't that common in those parts of the world.

 

[hwl]

8x 172s from the GOBLIN?

But will GOBlin electrification be finished in time for stock transfer for December 2016?

(The original plan was pre 2017 but I'm not sure what the current plan is.)

Marshlink to use some stock from GW electrification cascades if they can't get Goblin wired in time?

There is obviously a cunning plan given the careful wording from DfT but plenty of info not in the public domain yet...