DMU cascades and Micro fleets

[Old Hill Bank]

With all this talk of unit cascades across a number of threads on this forum, no one has put forward any plans to move away from the micro fleet syndrome that many TOCs are stuck with, so consider this:

GOBLIN gets wired
EGIP gets wired
Bedford-Bletchley gets wired
Walsall-Rugeley gets wired
North West routes wired
South Wales Valleys wired
Thames Valley wired

So:

LO and Chiltern 172s to LM releasing 150s and 153s to other TOCs that have them
Result LM only have 170s and 172s.
Scotrail 170s move to Chiltern and reconfigured as 168s
Result Chiltern only have 165s and 168s plus the loco hauled jobs.
FGW 165s and 166s move to Bristol and the South West and keep some 150s for suburban and branch line jobs
Result FGW only have 150s, 165s and 166s.
ATW get 158s released by FGW to deal with the long awaited Cambrian 1tph project and to cascade some 150s away from some of the longer distance jobs they are not suited for.
Result ATW only have 150s, 158s and 175s.

This is only a start and I accept has not included a strategy for much north or east of the West Midlands but deals with the small fleet of 143s currently split between two operators, Chilterns micro fleet of 172s and LMs micro fleet of 150s and 153s.

It also releases all of the the 143s and a number of 150s for refubishment and accessability work to take place prior to placement elsewhere.

 

[anthony263]

I am sure ATW would be happy to get additional class 158's to allow extra capacity and some new additional services.

ATW could have some spare capacity in their dmu fleet if the Manchester - south wales services are cut back from Milford Haven to Cardiff although I do think the service will be retained if only to allow a direct link between west wales & Cardiff via Swansea.

Hopefully the Cardiff - Cheltenham service will be improved along with a hourly Cardiff - Chepstow local service.

London Midland is the best place in my mind for the class 172 fleet and I do hope Chiltern look at taking on some of FGW's cass 165 fleet to replace their class 165's which can only do 75mph. The FGW examples having a top speed of 90mph would be easier to path along the chiltern mainline.

 

[D365]

I thought it was only FGW's 166s which could do 90mph; would be good to send those to Chiltern as they, like the 165s, can only be used on specific routes. In addition their longer-distance setup, as with the 168s and 170s, will be useful. As has been said, LM is probably the best place for the 172s, though they won't be able to replace all the slower-accelerating 170s anytime soon.

 

[nathanclass323]

You might want to take into account that LM use their 150s for the Marston Vale line.

 

[anthony263]

I thought it was only FGW's 166s which could do 90mph; would be good to send those to Chiltern as they, like the 165s, can only be used on specific routes. In addition their longer-distance setup, as with the 168s and 170s, will be useful. As has been said, LM is probably the best place for the 172s, though they won't be able to replace all the slower-accelerating 170s anytime soon.

No FGW's 165's can also do 90mph especially sicne that is teh linespeed on the linespeed on the relief lines between London and Reading

 

[158722]

I'd suggest the only stock Scotland will be giving up because of EGIP will be a few 156s or 158s rather than 170s. Edinburgh to Glasgow wiring will free up something like 12-14 170s, which I would suggest will oust the remaining 158s from Dunblane and Alloa services, perhaps the Edinburgh-Perth services and a couple of fife turns. The 158s either get sent away or replace 156s on the Shotts line, with 156s sent away south. Ironically, it will be harder to keep the 158s occupied in Scotland than the 156s, given the route restrictions with them in the south west and west highlands.

Whifflet and Cumbernauld wiring should free up around 6-7 units next year, nominally 158s, but 3 of those could see off the fife loco hauled turn with the others used to boost capacity. Plus don't forget that the Borders line will need stock too.

I can only see Scotland giving up DMUs in larger numbers when the wires reach Dunblane and Alloa towards the end of the decade, unless East Kilbride, Kilmarnock and the Shotts line also get wired - none of which I've seen mentioned in plans.

 

[ushawk]

You might want to take into account that LM use their 150s for the Marston Vale line.

Which the OP said would be wired, therefore not needed.

You cant forget the diesel islands of Oxted - Uckfield and the Marshlink line which Southern operate on, although I personally have no idea how these would be electrified since the shift to OHLE is meant to be taking place in the future.

Possibly put 3rd rail in as a short-term solution, then when the surrounding areas switch to OHLE, then convert these lines too.

The 171 stock could then be moved to a TOC with older stock possibly allowing them to be scrapped.

 

[Manchester77]

Don't forget Scotrail will need a few extra trains for the re-opening of part of the Waverly Line.

There are 86 319s. Firstly I'd split them into 36 and 50. I'd send 36 to the Cardiff Valleys as the WG seem to want newish rolling stock for them. Then the other 50 can come up here for use on the newly electrified lines. From the valleys this displaces 143s and 150s. The 143s can be given the porterbrook overhaul along with the 144s and come up north giving 46 pacers. The 150s can also be refurbished and sent elsewhere / strengthen ATW fleet.

 

[150219]

London Midland is the best place in my mind for the class 172 fleet and I do hope Chiltern look at taking on some of FGW's cass 165 fleet to replace their class 165's which can only do 75mph. The FGW examples having a top speed of 90mph would be easier to path along the chiltern mainline.

The Class 165/1 and Class 166 units are not cleared for use between South Ruislip and Marylebone.

On the occasions that they have received dispensation to be used, they have carried operating restrictions that have prohibited their maximum speed.

 

[SeanG]

The 171 stock could then be moved to a TOC with older stock possibly allowing them to be scrapped.

Or an operator with 170s, as they are more or less identical

 

[Class172]

The Class 165/1 and Class 166 units are not cleared for use between South Ruislip and Marylebone.

On the occasions that they have received dispensation to be used, they have carried operating restrictions that have prohibited their maximum speed.

Surely though the lack of clearance is purely down to lack of paperwork as its never been necessary, since I cannot think of any physical differences that would prohibit those trains and not the 165/0s.

 

[150219]

Surely though the lack of clearance is purely down to lack of paperwork as its never been necessary, since I cannot think of any physical differences that would prohibit those trains and not the 165/0s.

Not so, alas. The paperwork that last permitted their use between these two locations contained specific restrictions at certain locations, because of their subtle variances compared to the 165/0 fleet.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Class 165/1 and Class 166 units are not cleared for use between South Ruislip and Marylebone.

Doesn't mean they can't ever be cleared in the future though.

 

[anthony263]

Don't forget Scotrail will need a few extra trains for the re-opening of part of the Waverly Line.

There are 86 319s. Firstly I'd split them into 36 and 50. I'd send 36 to the Cardiff Valleys as the WG seem to want newish rolling stock for them. Then the other 50 can come up here for use on the newly electrified lines. From the valleys this displaces 143s and 150s. The 143s can be given the porterbrook overhaul along with the 144s and come up north giving 46 pacers. The 150s can also be refurbished and sent elsewhere / strengthen ATW fleet.

The class 319's would need their acceleration sorted out if they are to be used on the Cardiff Valley lines network. However their top speed of 100mph would make them ideal for use on services to Maesteg and Ebbw Vale which use the SWML for parts of their journey and so will offer good reduction in journey times.

For example a 158 can do Cardiff - Rogerstone in 16 minutes compared to a 150 which will do it in 20-21 minutes

 

[D365]

The Class 319s would need their acceleration sorted out if they are to be used on the Cardiff Valley lines network. However their top speed of 100mph would make them ideal for use on services to Maesteg and Ebbw Vale which use the SWML for parts of their journey and so will offer good reduction in journey times.

New traction package as with other Mk3 EMUs and reduction to 3-car units for Valley Lines.

 

[route:oxford]

Don't forget Scotrail will need a few extra trains for the re-opening of part of the Waverly Line.

It's was in the "Edinburgh Evening News" this evening that Wee 'Eck plans to operate steam services* on the Waverley route.

Maybe it would be easier to use the same coaching stock and operate the commuter services with locos...


*Does anyone have a spare turntable?

 

[D365]

Don't forget Scotrail will need a few extra trains for the re-opening of part of the Waverly Line.

It's was in the "Edinburgh Evening News" this evening that Wee 'Eck plans to operate steam services* on the Waverley route.

Maybe it would be easier to use the same coaching stock and operate the commuter services with locos...


*Does anyone have a spare turntable?

Being serious, however lovely steam operation would be (just like on the Cornish branches), I asked this question on the dedicated thread and was presented with cascaded 156s.

 

[Chris125]

I can only see Scotland giving up DMUs in larger numbers when the wires reach Dunblane and Alloa towards the end of the decade, unless East Kilbride, Kilmarnock and the Shotts line also get wired - none of which I've seen mentioned in plans.

Shotts is now in the EGIP plans as described here, alongside Cumbernauld/Whifflet/E&G/Dunblane and Alloa.

Chris

 

[jopsuk]

Still think it's a huge missed opportunity to not be building the Waverly as electric from the start, but that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[150219]

Doesn't mean they can't ever be cleared in the future though.

True.

To achieve this within the current specifications, will require some structural alterations between South Ruislip and Marylebone.

 

[bronzeonion]

Sort out the cheapo BR seating layout, seriously who thought of doing seat bays with a pillar in the middle of every one of them!

(about 319's)

 

[edwin_m]

According to July's Modern Railways, cascades in Scotland after Cumbernauld and Whifflet electrification will displace six 158s for Borders Rail. EGIP is expected to displace the loco-hauled set sometime after 2015 and may also displace some 158s. All ScotRail's leases except the 380s expire at the end of the franchise in 2015.

 

[158722]

According to July's Modern Railways, cascades in Scotland after Cumbernauld and Whifflet electrification will displace six 158s for Borders Rail. EGIP is expected to displace the loco-hauled set sometime after 2015 and may also displace some 158s. All ScotRail's leases except the 380s expire at the end of the franchise in 2015.

Doesn't really make sense as the 6 158s will be available next year whilst the borders line won't be ready until 2 (?) years after that. Has the contract for loco hauled set been extended too, as I was sure that it was due to end in Dec 2014, when the franchise was originally meant to finish.

I'd forgotten Shotts had been confirmed as part of EGIP, very sensible, so count on another 6-8 units being released from there.

 

[Class83]

6*158s will quickly be found gainful employment on Scotrail in the peaks. They could replace the 2 LHCS trains with them, but there are other routes needing extra carriages.

The Edinburgh-Glasgow service is only 16 units at peak, Assuming a 3 hour round trip and 30 min frequency the Borders will take 6 units as a 3 car railway, 8 if we assume 2 trains morning and evening will need to be 6 car.

 

[edwin_m]

Doesn't really make sense as the 6 158s will be available next year whilst the borders line won't be ready until 2 (?) years after that. Has the contract for loco hauled set been extended too, as I was sure that it was due to end in Dec 2014, when the franchise was originally meant to finish.

I'd forgotten Shotts had been confirmed as part of EGIP, very sensible, so count on another 6-8 units being released from there.

It says the loco-hauled has indeed been extended until 2015. Although full details aren't given it mentions that extra units may be needed during the Commonwealth Games.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Which the OP said would be wired, therefore not needed.

You cant forget the diesel islands of Oxted - Uckfield and the Marshlink line which Southern operate on, although I personally have no idea how these would be electrified since the shift to OHLE is meant to be taking place in the future.

Possibly put 3rd rail in as a short-term solution, then when the surrounding areas switch to OHLE, then convert these lines too.

The 171 stock could then be moved to a TOC with older stock possibly allowing them to be scrapped.

Surely there is no reason why they can't be OHLE whilst the rest of the line is 3rd rail? This happens on Thameslink.

Having said that there are lots of advantages to the Uckfield Line being diesel, amongst them are comfortable trains, don't get stuck on in the snow (well unless EG electrics do!), generally no stops between Oxted and East Croydon on peak hour services due to slow acceleration. So I hope it remains diesel.

My suggestion is that the LO 172 fleet goes to the Marshlink, freeing the 172s to go to Uckfield.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

My suggestion is that the LO 172 fleet goes to the Marshlink, freeing the 172s to go to Uckfield.

That just moves a micro fleet from one place to another.

 

[mr_jrt]

You cant forget the diesel islands of Oxted - Uckfield and the Marshlink line which Southern operate on, although I personally have no idea how these would be electrified since the shift to OHLE is meant to be taking place in the future.

Possibly put 3rd rail in as a short-term solution, then when the surrounding areas switch to OHLE, then convert these lines too.

The plan I've seen proposes conversion of EG to South Croydon and sparking up Uckfield as a phase two of the conversion programme, alone with the lines in Kent.

If you were to stick 3rd rail down temporarily (unlikely), then I suspect you'd probably do so with recovered non-life expired assets from the DC-AC conversion elsewhere, perhaps accelerating that process on some lines.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I am sure ATW would be happy to get additional class 158's to allow extra capacity and some new additional services.

ATW could have some spare capacity in their dmu fleet if the Manchester - south wales services are cut back from Milford Haven to Cardiff although I do think the service will be retained if only to allow a direct link between west wales & Cardiff via Swansea.

Hopefully the Cardiff - Cheltenham service will be improved along with a hourly Cardiff - Chepstow local service.

London Midland is the best place in my mind for the class 172 fleet and I do hope Chiltern look at taking on some of FGW's cass 165 fleet to replace their class 165's which can only do 75mph. The FGW examples having a top speed of 90mph would be easier to path along the chiltern mainline.

Operationally South Wales electrification is going to create a DMU business unit for West Wales and HoW based in Swansea, it cant be hotch potch of small numbers of 150,153 & 158's. So some cascades from FGW maybe appropriate to make it all 158. The 175s will not run west of Cardiff though may end up doing the Cheltenham runs and maybe the infill turnaround at Abergavenny. Cambrian and Brum to Holyhead will remain 158 worked. The question is what do you do with Wrexham- Bidston and Conwy Valley?

 

[anti-pacer]

There are 86 319s. Firstly I'd split them into 36 and 50. I'd send 36 to the Cardiff Valleys as the WG seem to want newish rolling stock for them. Then the other 50 can come up here for use on the newly electrified lines. From the valleys this displaces 143s and 150s. The 143s can be given the porterbrook overhaul along with the 144s and come up north giving 46 pacers. The 150s can also be refurbished and sent elsewhere / strengthen ATW fleet.

We're trying to get rid of Pacers up here, not adding to them! :roll: