DMU Cascade

[WillPS]

Okay, I'm not sure if there's a thread answering all my questions, but I couldn't find anything.

As we all know, London Overground and London Midland have ordered new-build 172s to replace their 150 fleets. This will case a cascade of DMUs, with First Great Western and Northern being the prime benefactors.

Here's what we know:

• Northern are receiving 8 150 units from London Midland, but will send 4 156 units on to East Midlands Trains [corrected]
• First Great Western will be sending their 142s back to Northern on receipt of cascaded 150s. They should also receive enough units to stop loco-hauled services

But I've heard all sorts of rumours, such as:

• London Midland are going to keep some 150s and cascade their 153s instead
• First Great Western are going to keep some or all of Northern's 142s, at least for a short while

And who knows which units are going where?

Is anybody else likely to benefit from the cascade?

Sort of related: will Northern ever get back their 158s from ScotRail??

 

[tbtc]

Sort of related: will Northern ever get back their 158s from ScotRail??

I wish I knew the answers to your other points (and I look forward to reading what others have to say).

However, as far as I know, the 158s are staying in Scotland, despite the electrification of the Bathgate line meaning ScotRail won't need as many DMUs

Much as it pains me (because I live in Northern England and I'm not a fan of the Nodding Donkeys) it probably makes sense to move the small allocation of FGW 142s to Northern when the 150s cascade happens, because at least we know how to deal with them (and a class of seven can't be that efficient for FGW to maintain).

 

[WatcherZero]

One thing ive been wondering about, but what is the current spare stabling and maintenance capacity of the operators?

I heard a rumour thats probably totally unfounded that while Northerns electric depots had plenty of capacity their diesel yards were struggling close to maximum capacity.

 

[ainsworth74]

I heard a rumour thats probably totally unfounded that while Northerns electric depots had plenty of capacity their diesel yards were struggling close to maximum capacity.

Wouldn't be suprised if that was true to be honest, Northern operate 36 EMU's compared with 251 DMU's!

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn't it actually 8 units (150s) to Northern releasing 4 units (156s) to EMT?-

It was definitely announced as 8 additional vehicles each for Northern and EMT by DfT the other week.

ATW benefits from the return of their loan 150s from FGW as well, but returns of loan units don't usually figure in DfT announcements do they, as they simply return stock to the rightful user.

I suspect FGW are just retaining Northern 142s until they get their full number of 150s, but only because they are cheaper to hire than the various Locos and LHCS sets they have in use temporarily.

 

[northwichcat]

It's actually 4 156s that will go to EMT from Northern (8 156 vehicles on the DfT statement.) One forum has even stated exactly which trains will go: 156470, 156473, 156497 and 156498.

FGW are going to keep the 142s until the 150s currently with London Overground are brought in to service in the South West. When this happens the 142s will be returned to Northern which will allow the 180s to be returned. This was supposed to happen this month but has been delayed due to the 172 production delay. Northern aren't happy about replacing the 3x180s with 7x142s even though they aren't happy with using the 180s currently and have asked for Sprinters to replace the 180s.

In Dec 2008 it was said that the 158s loaned to ScotRail would be replacing the 180s in May 2010. Apparently this month the lease on those 158s is to be changed under DfT orders so that ScotRail are leasing the units directly from the leasing company instead of sub-leasing them from Northern.

With regards to the London Midland cascade the 3 car 150/0s are causing a bit of debate as they can't be formed in to 2 car units and it is expected that the rest will be returned to 2 car formation. London Midland's solution to this is that if they are going to cause problems then they can keep the 150/0s and will release some 153s instead. Unofficially a suggested reason for this is that because the 150/0s are older than 153s if they keep some 150s they can ask for more 172s in the near future to replace them and order additional units at the same time to increase their fleet size, while if they keep the 153s they'll probably not be considered for any new rolling stock for a long time.

 

[Crossforth]

As long as Northern gets some extra capacity I don't care who gets what.

I'm getting sick of being stuck in the doorway of a 158

Although it would be interesting to see some Northern branded LM 153s up here

 

[WillPS]

If that about ScotRail keeping the 158s is true, its disappointing. It should be a priority to move DMUs away from routes which EMUs can operate.

I guess we'll know more details in the coming months.

 

[Drsatan]

FGW, to the best of my knowledge, will require 14 150s to replace the seven 142s, the four 150s leased from ATW and both LHCS formations. However, this will result in no net increase in capacity, meaning that there will still be overcrowding on 'Devon Metro' services. However, given all the horror stories I've read about overcrowded trains on Northern on this forum, I accept that Northern probably needs those seven 142s, even though they're not ideal!

What would be far better though is if more DMUs are ordered now, and more lines are electrified now, resulting in DMUs being displaced (for instance, if Manchester - Leeds - York - Hull/Scarborough was electrified then the displaced 185s and 170s would replace 158s on certain routes, allowing the 142s to be scrapped and 150s, 153s and 156s to move elsewhere), then overcrowding would be reduced sooner rather than later rather than waiting until 2016/17 when the lines from Manchester to Liverpool, Preston and Blackpool are electrified! (which may not happen to save a couple of billion while no-one's looking)

Due to the delays in the 172 production line, I don't think FGW will return the 142s until December at the earliest. And, if a few of the 150/1s can't be reduced to two cars to allow transfer to Northern and FGW, they could simply be transferred as three car units to increase capacity by a small percentage, which would be compensated for by ordering more centre cars for the 172s. Alternatively, FGW will recieve a mixture of 153s and 150s, although I think FGW would prefer 150s due to their greater seating capacity.

 

[CarterUSM]

If that about ScotRail keeping the 158s is true, its disappointing. It should be a priority to move DMUs away from routes which EMUs can operate.

I guess we'll know more details in the coming months.

Perhaps they will replace the loco hauled fife circle services, and i believe 158's will start running to whifflet at the december timetable change.

 

[me123]

158s to Whifflet?!?!? YAY!!!

I know what people are saying about Scotrail's 158s, but we really do need the capacity on other routes, such as Edinburgh-Dunblane and Fife Circle services. We're also planning to start a new service soon between Glasgow and Perth (and perhaps onto Dundee or Arbroath?) which would need more trains. I'm pretty sure, Will, that we will not be using them on the Bathgate line!!!

 

[northwichcat]

As long as Northern gets some extra capacity I don't care who gets what.

I'm getting sick of being stuck in the doorway of a 158

I'm sure the West side passengers, including myself, are more than happy for Leeds to get the 7x142s released from FGW if we get 7x158s from Neville Hill to replace the 180s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

158s to Whifflet?!?!? YAY!!!

I know what people are saying about Scotrail's 158s, but we really do need the capacity on other routes, such as Edinburgh-Dunblane and Fife Circle services. We're also planning to start a new service soon between Glasgow and Perth (and perhaps onto Dundee or Arbroath?) which would need more trains. I'm pretty sure, Will, that we will not be using them on the Bathgate line!!!

The main criticism of ScotRail having the 158s is DfT are effectively robbing one poor person to pay another.

 

[tbtc]

158s to Whifflet?!?!? YAY!!!

I know what people are saying about Scotrail's 158s, but we really do need the capacity on other routes, such as Edinburgh-Dunblane and Fife Circle services. We're also planning to start a new service soon between Glasgow and Perth (and perhaps onto Dundee or Arbroath?) which would need more trains. I'm pretty sure, Will, that we will not be using them on the Bathgate line!!!

What frustates me about Scotrail's 158s (and I know this is an old argument) is that a lot of them are attached to a 170 for much of the day (similar to some LM 153s).

In an ideal world we'd have built more centre coaches for 170s which would release the Sprinters to provide capacity where they are needed.

I accept that the argument is going to be that certain diagrams split (so the 158 and 170 are disconnected), but in the main its an all day pairing. Is there any reason why a five car 170 isn't possible?

158s on an "all stops" route like Whifflet is even more frustrating, since that kind of service would be more suited to something like a 150 (although it would be an easy route to wire, since there are wires at both ends, and it could then be intergrated with the Motherwell EMUs.

Well intentioned though the cascade is, its dissapointing that the small print shows that FGW and Northern (two busy franchises) will get little actual increase in capacity, since the 150s go back to ATW, the 180s to East Coast, the 156s to EMT, the loco hauled stock is replaced... its robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

[O L Leigh]

With regards to the London Midland cascade the 3 car 150/0s are causing a bit of debate as they can't be formed in to 2 car units and it is expected that the rest will be returned to 2 car formation.

Yes they can. Both units ran as both 2 and 3 car units during the 1980's, especially when 150002 was moonlighting as 154001/002.

O L Leigh

 

[northwichcat]

Yes they can. Both units ran as both 2 and 3 car units during the 1980's, especially when 150002 was moonlighting as 154001/002.

O L Leigh

So are you proposing a driving cab can be added to the centre cabs of the 150/0s or that the centre cabs would be scrapped or placed in another type of unit?

The lack of a centre car driving cab currently means the 150/0s (with 239 seats) have many more seats than the 150/1s with a 150/2 centre car (207 seats on average - slightly less if they have two toilets, slightly more if they have one)

 

[WillPS]

Doesn't FGW run 150s as 3-car hybrids? If so, why not just reform those units and replace them with these?

 

[MCR247]

No, they have 3 car 158 hybrids

 

[O L Leigh]

So are you proposing a driving cab can be added to the centre cabs of the 150/0s or that the centre cabs would be scrapped or placed in another type of unit?

The lack of a centre car driving cab currently means the 150/0s (with 239 seats) have many more seats than the 150/1s with a 150/2 centre car (207 seats on average - slightly less if they have two toilets, slightly more if they have one)

Pardon...?

You said that the Cl150/0's can't be formed into 2 car units. Yes they can. You swap out the centre cars and, hey presto, 2 car units.

If what you had meant was that you couldn't turn the two 3 car units into three 2 car units you should have been clearer about that in your earlier post. But the fact that the centre cars don't have driving cabs and would just be sitting idle if swapped out does not prevent these two units running as 2 car trains.

O L Leigh

 

[northwichcat]

Pardon...?

You said that the Cl150/0's can't be formed into 2 car units. Yes they can. You swap out the centre cars and, hey presto, 2 car units.

If what you had meant was that you couldn't turn the two 3 car units into three 2 car units you should have been clearer about that in your earlier post. But the fact that the centre cars don't have driving cabs and would just be sitting idle if swapped out does not prevent these two units running as 2 car trains.

O L Leigh

With all the threads mentioning 150s recently I didn't think it was neccessary to say how the 3 car 150/1s vary from the 3 car 150/0s. 2 x 3 car 150/1s = 2x 2 car 150/1s + 1x 2 car 150/2. 3 car 150/0s = 2 x 2 car 150/1s or 2x 3 car 150/0s. I think it's a no brainer what happens to those centre carriages with all the overcrowding and leaving passengers behind happening currently on the network.

I think this could have been a case of because your from a different area you aren't fully aware of how other TOCs operate and the infrastructure in other areas of countries so something I think is just stating the obvious isn't maybe the case.

Northern (and other operators) call at stations where 4 car trains can fit on the platform but 5 car ones may not. This isn't a problem by itself because such lines could have a 3 car 150 by itself, a pair of 2 car ones or a single 2 car one. However, with the way Northern operate their diagrams and do unit swaps during maintainence it would be a nightmare for them to have diagrams for 3 car 150s if they only have 2 of them. They don't even find it possible to have Manchester Airport shuttles run by just 323s with extra luggage space and they can finish up on a Stoke service just as easily as an Airprot shuttle.

However, if Northern, TPE or Merseyrail have carriages just sitting in sidings doing nothing it would cause outrage with passengers and PTEs.

 

[Failed Unit]

Surely the same problems existing the the West Midlands, Northern could quite easily operate a fleet of 3 car 150's I mean they operate both 2 and 3 car 158's and that doesn't cause a problem. Am I missing something?

 

[northwichcat]

Surely the same problems existing the the West Midlands, Northern could quite easily operate a fleet of 3 car 150's I mean they operate both 2 and 3 car 158's and that doesn't cause a problem. Am I missing something?

The 3 car 158s (and 3 car 144s) are reserved for certain former ATN routes. The Northern 153s are based at Neville Hill to allow the 3 car 158s and 144s to run as 4 car with the addition of a 153.

London Midland operate many 3 car 150s but it has been suggested that Northern would receive them as 2 car 150s as the spilt up 150/2s would be the EMT bound 156s and are short of stock as it is so an extra few 150s won't go far in 2 car formation, so using them in 3 car formation will go even less far because one unit in maintainence will mean 3 cars out of service opposed to 2.

 

[Failed Unit]

The 3 car 158s (and 3 car 144s) are reserved for certain former ATN routes. The Northern 153s are based at Neville Hill to allow the 3 car 158s and 144s to run as 4 car with the addition of a 153.

London Midland operate many 3 car 150s but it has been suggested that Northern would receive them as 2 car 150s as the spilt up 150/2s would be the EMT bound 156s and are short of stock as it is so an extra few 150s won't go far in 2 car formation, so using them in 3 car formation will go even less far because one unit in maintainence will mean 3 cars out of service opposed to 2.

Some routes may be better suited to 3 car, replace a 4 car pacer working with a 3 car sprinter working for example and be better for all involved. No-one if DaFT will go as far as telling them how to form sets. Surely it is better to use 2x 2car 158's rathan than a 3car + 153?

In the event of problems it is not such a big deal. If it is the MS remove it. If it is a driving car just reform. There is nothing to stop the centre car of 150001 been placed in 150222 for example!

There have been may wierd formations used in the past to cover accidents. 156's with no toilets. 153 + 156 (to form a 2 car unit), 158 + 156 (again to form a 2 car) 153 + 158 in CT land.

 

[northwichcat]

The centre cars Northern got were supposed to be for York-Blackpool services and DfT allocated them to Northern for that purpose. That route was a transpenninexpress branded route before the TPE franchise started. However, Northern use the 3 car 158s on Calder Vale services as well. Calder Vale services currently have extra passengers due to the Oldham Loop being closed and strengthen Calder Vale services with what ever is available i.e. any type DMU Northern currently possess except 180s.

 

[O L Leigh]

With all the threads mentioning 150s recently I didn't think it was neccessary to say how the 3 car 150/1s vary from the 3 car 150/0s. 2 x 3 car 150/1s = 2x 2 car 150/1s + 1x 2 car 150/2. 3 car 150/0s = 2 x 2 car 150/1s or 2x 3 car 150/0s. I think it's a no brainer what happens to those centre carriages with all the overcrowding and leaving passengers behind happening currently on the network.

I can do the maths, thank you.

So you concede that the Cl150/0's CAN be formed as 2 car units then. Perhaps what you should have said at the outset was that they won't be formed as 2 car units because of the loss of capacity unless, as others have suggested, the centre cars are redeployed elsewhere. That would have made much more sense.

O L Leigh

 

[ChrisCooper]

There are 3 options for the 150/0s, keep them as they are, cut them down to 2 cars and waste the centre coaches (surely a bad idea given the DMU shortage) or reform them into a 2 and a 4 (surely no techincal reason that couldn't be done, and there must be at least one diagram suitable for a permenant 4 car 150).

I imagine the choice comes down to diagrams of whoever gets them. Are there two diagrams that would be suitable for 3 coach 150s permenantly (no need for lengthening during the peaks), or that could take a 5 coach 150 during the peaks (150/0+150), or is there a diagram that would be suitable for a 4 car 150 all the time, or could take a 6 car during the peaks (couple both 150/0s together). I really can't see wasting the centre cars is an option. That said, I wonder if it would be possible to remove the traction equipment and covert them into trailers for use in 455s. It's the only other option beyond storing or scrapping if they are removed from the 150/0s.

 

[455driver]

There is nothing to stop the centre car of 150001 been placed in 150222 for example!

What about the couplings, I thought the original 3 car 150s (001/002) had BSI couplings at the outer ends and bar couplings between coaches, where-as the 2 car ones had BSI at both ends of each coach.

 

[CarterUSM]

What about the couplings, I thought the original 3 car 150s (001/002) had BSI couplings at the outer ends and bar couplings between coaches, where-as the 2 car ones had BSI at both ends of each coach.

Is that so? I thought they would have had both?

 

[ChrisCooper]

Yes, the 150/0s have bar couplings inside sets and BSI couplings on the ends, wheras 150/1s and 2s have BSI couplings throughout, as do the other Sprinters, which allows for much more flexability with formations (DMSs in the middle of 3 car sets, 153s replacing a DMS on a 2 car set).

 

[CarterUSM]

Yes, i was thinking that myself, unfortunate these things aren't thought of at the time. Would there be a possibility of retro fitting them with BSI, or is that too much time and cost?

 

[tbtc]

There are 3 options for the 150/0s, keep them as they are, cut them down to 2 cars and waste the centre coaches (surely a bad idea given the DMU shortage) or reform them into a 2 and a 4 (surely no techincal reason that couldn't be done, and there must be at least one diagram suitable for a permenant 4 car 150).

I imagine the choice comes down to diagrams of whoever gets them. Are there two diagrams that would be suitable for 3 coach 150s permenantly (no need for lengthening during the peaks), or that could take a 5 coach 150 during the peaks (150/0+150), or is there a diagram that would be suitable for a 4 car 150 all the time, or could take a 6 car during the peaks (couple both 150/0s together). I really can't see wasting the centre cars is an option. That said, I wonder if it would be possible to remove the traction equipment and covert them into trailers for use in 455s. It's the only other option beyond storing or scrapping if they are removed from the 150/0s.

I'd guess that the 150s displaced elsewhere will mainly be used on strengthening of existing services (due to lack of paths at certain main stations), so I could imagine a number of permanent four car 150s