DM in cab

[strange6]

Been there and got the T-Shirt, I earn a lot more as a driver than a DM with the overtime, no on call and at the end of the shift hang ur boots up, I wouldn't go back into management again - for your info it may only be ATW who has this agreement for managers not to drive train unaccompanied by the booked driver

If that's the case, more fool ATW!

 

[TDK]

If that's the case, more fool ATW!

It's not actually ATW but it is the unions that blocked this with DM's working trains to protect their rights and also if there are strikes

 

[tirphil]

Traction Inspectors with EWS were not allowed to drive unless the booked driver was on the train. I doubt that this will have changed since DB took over.

 

[1V53]

If you're going to make a deliberately provocative comment like that then you'll have to provide a reasonable argument for it. Why should management not be given the opportunity to train and perform the task of frontline staff? Some staff complain that their superiors have no knowledge of the front line (despite the opportunities for career progression on the railways being much greater than in other industries and thus the likelihood that the management have previously held junior roles) yet don't like the fact they put it into practice.

I might not be a guard (as my company doesn't have any fortunately) but I hold a license which enables me to work on our stations as and when required (which in the past has been on strike days) and provide minimum staffing numbers for a lot of our stations (for which I've formally been familiarised with).

Why "fortunately"? As a guard I find YOUR comment deliberately provocative. Where is YOUR "reasonable argument" for that?

 

[BestWestern]

Why "fortunately"? As a guard I find YOUR comment deliberately provocative. Where is YOUR "reasonable argument" for that?

I will happily second that, why indeed? Perhaps you should be a little more switched on and a little less loose of tongue - if your TOC is so dimissive of the importance of frontline staff, you need to ask yourself how secure YOUR job is.

 

[185]

The last train I worked some time ago which had a DSM on board, he drove a train over a route he didn't sign, and ended up demoted.

 

[Mojo]

Why "fortunately"?

Because it would increase dwell time creating a slower journey for our passengers, add no benefit in terms of safety or customer service and add more cost.

As a guard I find YOUR comment deliberately provocative. Where is YOUR "reasonable argument" for that?

It works both ways
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I will happily second that, why indeed? Perhaps you should be a little more switched on and a little less loose of tongue - if your TOC is so dimissive of the importance of frontline staff, you need to ask yourself how secure YOUR job is.

Fortunately I don't work for a Toc. And my company is not dismissive, the reductions ensured there were staff present where they were before, kept at or over minimum staffing numbers where mandated by law and was carried out with no compulsory redundancies. I'm not overly worried about job security, none of the staff reductions recently were achieved through compulsory redundancies. Even if that were to change and I find my skills surplus to requirements, then I'd go and find a job elsewhere.

 

[CarterUSM]

Because it would increase dwell time creating a slower journey for our passengers, add no benefit in terms of safety or customer service and add more cost.

Not sure I agree with the dwell time factor. The other two points are fair, but debatable however.

 

[Mojo]

Not sure I agree with the dwell time factor. The other two points are fair, but debatable however.

My reasoning for this is comparing guard operated trains to how we do things at present. When the train arrives at the platform the guard has to open door & check the train is correctly platformed, open the doors, close the doors, close the local door and give bell signal to the Train Operator.

At present the Train Operator pulls up, opens the doors immediately (sometimes even before train stops) and when ready closes the doors and pulls off when doors closed, interlock confirmed and safety checks performed using the OPO equipment. I'd estimate guard operation could potentially add 5-10 seconds to dwell times, possibly more when busy.

 

[GB]

A guard obviously adds cost, but please explain how dwell times are extended by using them or how there is no added safety or customer service benefit or have I missed something???

 

[1V53]

Wait till someone drops something from a bridge and incapacitates the driver, or a fight kicks off in the train, then tell me a guard adds nothing for the safety! I'm assuming you are in management from your comments.

As for opening the doors before the train stops... Safety not affected?!

 

[Mojo]

I value the benefits of on-train staff on trains where they would be able to walk through the entirety of the train and interact with customers; this is one of the reasons I don't have a problem with electric trains in the Glasgow area, despite them passing through some quite insalubrious areas, for example. Similar reasons on the North/West London lines. However on our trains that would not be possible as if on-train staff were provided even for customer service duties they would not be able to move through the train.

 

[1V53]

I guess it's something we aren't going to agree on, but it was rather ironic a mod making a comment like that when criticising a member for not supporting their argument.

Have to ask- why can't a guard move through the train? Surely if packed then it needs more capacity? Yes I know that's not simple but getting rid of guards seems a bit of a cop-out solution. If two units without corridor connections then the guard could change units at a stop, the extra few seconds being small beer for the extra customer service.

 

[CarterUSM]

My reasoning for this is comparing guard operated trains to how we do things at present. When the train arrives at the platform the guard has to open door & check the train is correctly platformed, open the doors, close the doors, close the local door and give bell signal to the Train Operator.

At present the Train Operator pulls up, opens the doors immediately (sometimes even before train stops) and when ready closes the doors and pulls off when doors closed, interlock confirmed and safety checks performed using the OPO equipment. I'd estimate guard operation could potentially add 5-10 seconds to dwell times, possibly more when busy.

Sure Mojo, I see what you are getting at. Where I work however, 30 seconds is allowed, by and large, for station duties regardless of DOO or Guard operated services. A half decent guard won't be faffing about doing tickets as the service comes in to a station thus further prioritising station duties. What the system you describe does have, is efficiency of manpower, of that there is no doubt.

 

[ainsworth74]

Have to ask- why can't a guard move through the train? Surely if packed then it needs more capacity?

Now I could be wrong but as I recall Mojo works for London Underground and their trains do not have inter-vehicle connections, so the only way to move through the train is at station stops.

 

[Mojo]

I guess it's something we aren't going to agree on, but it was rather ironic a mod making a comment like that when criticising a member for not supporting their argument.

It certainly wasn't intended that way but I perhaps was just a bit annoyed about the words used. Perhaps if I had used the words "useless staff" or something (words I would not use towards a group or single grade of staff ever)

Have to ask- why can't a guard move through the train?

I was simply going by how things used to work rather than how such a role would work if reintroduced today, obviously if designing a train from scratch today one would do things a little different. Our trains do not have through corridors between carriages, let alone units (this doesn't stop Island Line though, whose guards walk through the train when moving!) and how far the guard could move was constrained by the location of door panels.

Surely if packed then it needs more capacity?

You can say that again! Would make everyone's lives easier, staff and passengers. £13bn is being spent/has already been spent to upgrade our railway until 2018.

 

[strange6]

Speaking from a passenger perspective, I think you do need a second competent person, in addition to the driver, in case things go wrong H&S wise. Guards are very much undermined in my opinion; they not only play a really important part in protecting the TOC's revenue, but they are also there to reassure the travelling public both in terms of protection, H&S and as a friendly face. They're not paid enough in my opinion (and not appreciated enough)

 

[notadriver]

There's a huge difference between the DOO provided on the Tube and that on a main line railway. However main line trains are completely different and this needs to be taken into account.

It is true modern trains such as the Javelin, class 377s have full DOO using CCTV but without a guard on board, if something happens inside the train or there's someone who needs assistance - then its down to the driver who quite frankly has enough to worry about.

 

[strange6]

There's a huge difference between the DOO provided on the Tube and that on a main line railway. However main line trains are completely different and this needs to be taken into account.

It is true modern trains such as the Javelin, class 377s have full DOO using CCTV but without a guard on board, if something happens inside the train or there's someone who needs assistance - then its down to the driver who quite frankly has enough to worry about.

Hear hear. Guards are just as important as drivers in my humble opinion.

 

[1V53]

Thank you Strange6. It's a shame when sometimes people have to have a go here so nice to see comments like this. I've lost count of the number of times I have had to act as policeman with idiots, yobs and drunks, as comforter and advisor to those who are delayed or caught the wrong train (looked up NX coach times on my phone for one lady who missed the last train to London once who was catching an early flight!), plus all the regular queries, from platforms to taxis. Not to mention the days I have taken £1000 in revenue, and there have been times I have had to ask the driver to move down because the back coach is off the platform. I've called the police and signaller to report safety of the line incidents and looked after pax when things go wrong and the driver is out under the train trying to diagnose and fix a fault.

It's not all easy life being a guard, but it can be rewarding. Thanks again.

 

[TDK]

Hear hear. Guards are just as important as drivers in my humble opinion.

Yes indeed, however, a train can actually move from point a to point B without a guard on either DOO or ECS or Freight but I have worked both DOO and with a guard and to be honest the services I have worked certainly needs a guard, as for dwell times, a driver pulls into a station either releases the doors or the guard releases them, the when safe to do so closes the doors, checks the train is safe for departure, re-enters the train, closes local door and signals to the driver - OK, maybe 5 seconds longer, but what you have to remember is that with DOO once a driver has passed the montor if there is an emergency what will stop the train? nothing. Also if there is a fire on board what stops the train? maybe a pass com, but this may be pulled at the wrong place stopping the train wherever, the driver then needs to go back and see what the problem is - 10 dead with smoke inhilation, with a guard on board the fire could be identified, the pass com pulled so as to stop the train in a safer location, communication between the guard and driver and lives saved - so yes a guard is escential on most service - however the word important should not come into it as the roles are completely different

 

[Mojo]

with DOO once a driver has passed the montor if there is an emergency what will stop the train? nothing.

Now trains can operate with track to train CCTV (better option) or bodyside mounted cameras which means that the train operator can see the platform as the train departs.

Still though, what if the guard is at the front of the train when the train leaves the platform, and windows are not provided so the guard cannot see the train leaving?

Also if there is a fire on board what stops the train? maybe a pass com, but this may be pulled at the wrong place stopping the train wherever

As I'm sure you know train stock can be altered (or designed from scratch as with new stock) so that the brakes to not come on immediately so the train doesn't just stop anywhere. If there was a fire on board I am sure most customers would pull the emergency alarm anyway regardless of whether a guard was on board or not (especially on routes where the guard never appears (eg. B'ham Cross-city) they may not even realise there is a guard).

 

[TDK]

Now trains can operate with track to train CCTV (better option) or bodyside mounted cameras which means that the train operator can see the platform as the train departs.

.

Would that not create a SPAD risk? The best place for a driver to be looking at are the signals, the newer trains that have the bodyside CCTV are a great advantage however I still feel that having a guard is a safer option - especially when it comes to station dispatch.

 

[notadriver]

The DOO cameras and internal CCTV cannot be viewed by the driver once the train speed increases past 4 mph for safety reasons.

 

[1V53]

I have to say whilst I can understand on underground services, providing the stops every few seconds are predominantly manned and gated there probably is an argument for no guard. However when we look back at the London bombings you have to ask yourself if the communication could have been improved with another competent person available on the train. I also fail to see how an effective argument can be made for DOO outside a very limited set of operational circumstances such as the underground.

I also have to say using an argument of speed seems a bit of a hollow one. Safety should be the number one priority.