DLR Thamesmead Extension: Preferred Route Decided

[DynamicSpirit]

TfL say they have now decided on a preferred route for the proposed DLR extension to Thamesmead and have opened a new consultation about it. They are proposing to build a ground level station at Beckton Riverside, alongside Armada Way, and an elevated Thamesmead station, which as far as I can make out from their maps, will be roughly at the western end of the Thamesmead retail park shopping centre, with passive provision to further extend the DLR. I'm guessing the passive provision is part of the reason why they are making this station elevated - since it means any further extension can easily get across or run alongside the A2041 dual carriageway.

New consultation at https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/dlr-extension-consultation-2.
Railforums thread discussing the previous 2024 consultation at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/dlr-thamesmead-extension-consultation.262324/

My initial impression is that, although I'd have preferred a longer extension, the plans look quite reasonable. My main doubt is, they are going to be feeding a lot of extra trains onto the existing DLR Beckton branch, where the extension would join that branch at Gallions Reach. Does the DLR have the capacity for that without decimating the service at Beckton?

 

[stuu]

They are planning a turnback siding at Custom House... initially/off peak they will run trains every 8 minutes to both Beckton and Thamesmead, to Stratford/Tower Gateway. In the peaks and once demand increases they will turn some trains at Custom House. Although I wouldn't be surprised if Beckton ends up permanently being a shuttle to Custom House though

 

[DynamicSpirit]

They are planning a turnback siding at Custom House... initially/off peak they will run trains every 8 minutes to both Beckton and Thamesmead, to Stratford/Tower Gateway. In the peaks and once demand increases they will turn some trains at Custom House. Although I wouldn't be surprised if Beckton ends up permanently being a shuttle to Custom House though

You mean a turnback siding from the East? That seems an unfortunate place to put it: If you're going to turn back trains from Beckton/Thamesmead, then that should really be done at Canning Town, to allow for the Jubilee line interchange there.

 

[alholmes]

They are planning a turnback siding at Custom House... initially/off peak they will run trains every 8 minutes to both Beckton and Thamesmead, to Stratford/Tower Gateway. In the peaks and once demand increases they will turn some trains at Custom House. Although I wouldn't be surprised if Beckton ends up permanently being a shuttle to Custom House though

The Options Analysis Technical Report, which forms part of the new consultation documents, states that the two options for turnback sidings are either a new siding beside the Ecology Park to the west of Canning Town, or a remodelling of Royal Victoria station. Custom House isn’t mentioned as an option.

 

[stuu]

Oops, always get those two confused

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I've now found the relevant bit of the consultation that mentions the possible turnback locations, at Royal Victoria and West of Canning Town. I hope they go for the Canning Town option - since remodelling Royal Victoria sounds a very expensive way to provide inferior connections.

 

[D1511]

I've now found the relevant bit of the consultation that mentions the possible turnback locations, at Royal Victoria and West of Canning Town. I hope they go for the Canning Town option - since remodelling Royal Victoria sounds a very expensive way to provide inferior connections.

The West of Canning Town option is complicated by the ramps on the blue (or Reubens) bridge ....which has been unused since it was constructed......but it is the better option IMO

The new station at Gallions will help with transforming the heavily car based site into a mixed use town centre.

 

[markymark2000]

I think both turnbacks have their own merits and arguably necessary. Make Royal Victoria a 'through' turnback so it can be used both for trains from Stratford/Poplar directions which could be useful for disruptive times to give a turnback that isn't just throwing everyone off at Canning Town which in itself is probably not ideal, especially when then to turn around means blocking a line somewhere. A tiny little divert off to Royal Victoria means the train can turn around in peace, or even change lines if needed (Ie between Stratford Intl line and Poplar lines)
The Canning Town turnback is best for the Thamesmead shuttles though on the basis of connections for passengers. If you throw people off at Royal Victoria, most of them will then wait for the next service to Canning Town and then maybe have to change services again there. It's just making passengers faff for the sake of faffing and I think it will hinder the potential patronage on the route if people are turfed off 1 station before literally all of the connections (bus, tube, DLR to most other destinations)

 

[465fan]

TfL say they have now decided on a preferred route for the proposed DLR extension to Thamesmead and have opened a new consultation about it. They are proposing to build a ground level station at Beckton Riverside, alongside Armada Way, and an elevated Thamesmead station, which as far as I can make out from their maps, will be roughly at the western end of the Thamesmead retail park shopping centre, with passive provision to further extend the DLR. I'm guessing the passive provision is part of the reason why they are making this station elevated - since it means any further extension can easily get across or run alongside the A2041 dual carriageway.

New consultation at https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/dlr-extension-consultation-2.
Railforums thread discussing the previous 2024 consultation at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/dlr-thamesmead-extension-consultation.262324/

My initial impression is that, although I'd have preferred a longer extension, the plans look quite reasonable. My main doubt is, they are going to be feeding a lot of extra trains onto the existing DLR Beckton branch, where the extension would join that branch at Gallions Reach. Does the DLR have the capacity for that without decimating the service at Beckton?

The extension, and any construction and new infrastructure, is welcome.

But for people in and around Thamesmead (Abbey Wood to the south, Woolwich just to the west, and lots of people surely arriving by the very buses they might use to go to Abbey Wood or Woolwich instead), to go to Custom House and change, or Canary Wharf, or of course towNetards the City with Whitechapel or Liverpool Street, I am struggling to work out what this fundamentally does.

At the very least, if they could extend it to Belvedere, it would just ease a tiny bit of pressure on the Elizabeth Line. But, if you're doing all of this, it feels like extending the Elizabeth Line on conventional tracks to Dartford or Gravesend would have a much bigger benefit, as Belvedere and Erith could use that and change at Custom House to get to somewhere like Beckton (do many people go to that niche part of London?).

Considering Bexley Council have shown one of their biggest issues is north - south connectivity in the borough, the most expensive, but possibly most consequential thing to do (hence why it would never get done) would be to run the DLR in a tunnel under Abbey Wood (obviously), and down to Bexleyheath. That's the hub of activity in the borough, the bus terminus / main through point, and would mean creating a truly effective means of conveyance from a variety of small suburbs / areas to Abbey Wood for the Elizabeth Line.

Missed opportunity. Then again, the two more important priorities for spending are the Bakerloo line extension and an extension of the Elizabeth Line into Kent.

 

[Sunil_P]

Wasn't the original plan for the DLR to stay north of the River and end up at Dagenham Dock?

 

[Tobberz]

If we're talking about missed opportunities, it's unclear why Barking Riverside was not built with a view to extending the Overground over the river. But that's another topic.

 

[Monarch010]

The SL3 Superloop bus provides a quick-ish connection from Abbey Wood to Bexleyheath town centre and on to Sidcup.

 

[465fan]

The SL3 Superloop bus provides a quick-ish connection from Abbey Wood to Bexleyheath town centre and on to Sidcup.

It's just not the same, especially as it gets snarled up in the usual traffic right the way along and through Abbey Wood, up to the top of New Road / Knee Hill, and then throughout Bexleyheath, Bexley village, Sidcup and the like.

The game changer would be some sort of light-rail / rapid transit system between Abbey Wood and Bexleyheath. But, as I say, its too expensive and it's absolutely pie in the sky.

 

[Russel]

I don't know the area very well, so this may not be a great suggestion, but here goes...

Rather than having a seperate Beckton and Thamesmead branch, would closing the current Beckton station and re-siteing it next to the DLR depot where the proposed junction is and scrapping the Beckton branch, be a better option?

 

[465fan]

I don't know the area very well, so this may not be a great suggestion, but here goes...

Rather than having a seperate Beckton and Thamesmead branch, would closing the current Beckton station and re-siteing it next to the DLR depot where the proposed junction is and scrapping the Beckton branch, be a better option?

You're not completely off track with that. Beckton is reached by effectively doing a large horseshoe from Cyprus, round past Gallions Reach, and into Beckton. If you consider that its only a 10 minute walk to Cyprus, and local buses could just start / terminate at the new station by the shopping centre...

 

[Geogregor]

This project is probably one of the least needed in London, way below BLE, West London Orbital, Elizabeth Line extension or many station upgrades.

The only reason it is progressing is because it is (relatively) cheap and TfL can't afford anything more substantial. Even here they will have to beg for money left right and centre to get started.

 

[Russel]

You're not completely off track with that. Beckton is reached by effectively doing a large horseshoe from Cyprus, round past Gallions Reach, and into Beckton. If you consider that its only a 10 minute walk to Cyprus, and local buses could just start / terminate at the new station by the shopping centre...

Long term, it could also help offset the construction costs, only having one branch to maintain, no junction and not requiring as many, if any additional trains for the extension.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This project is probably one of the least needed in London, way below BLE, West London Orbital, Elizabeth Line extension or many station upgrades.

The difference being that none of those projects - with the exception of the Bakerloo Line Extension - provide a rail service to any large area where lots of people live that currently lacks any rail service at all. Thamesmead has long been considered a priority because it's - almost uniquely in London - a huge and well populated area that is not currently within reasonable walking distance of any station.

The only reason it is progressing is because it is (relatively) cheap and TfL can't afford anything more substantial. Even here they will have to beg for money left right and centre to get started.

It's unlikely to be that cheap considering it will require building a new rail tunnel under the Thames. I would imagine the main reason it's progressing where other projects aren't, besides providing a rail service to an area that doesn't have one, is its potential to enable lots of new housing West of Thamesmead and around Beckton Riverside. (Although to be honest, considering Thamesmead sits on a floodplain, I think it'd be rather more sensible to open the area West of Thamesmead as public parkland, and build somewhere a bit higher up).

 

[stuu]

If we're talking about missed opportunities, it's unclear why Barking Riverside was not built with a view to extending the Overground over the river. But that's another topic.

Because in order to do so the station would have needed to be ~half a mile back from where it is in order to leave room for a ramp and a launch site for tunnelling.

 

[Geogregor]

Because in order to do so the station would have needed to be ~half a mile back from where it is in order to leave room for a ramp and a launch site for tunnelling.

Other option would be station in a trench, with space left for future tunneling under the river, to Thamesmead and Abbey Wood.

But this is London not Paris, short term cheap fixes will have to do. So we will end up with suboptimal DLR extension.

The difference being that none of those projects - with the exception of the Bakerloo Line Extension - provide a rail service to any large area where lots of people live that currently lacks any rail service at all. Thamesmead has long been considered a priority because it's - almost uniquely in London - a huge and well populated area that is not currently within reasonable walking distance of any station.

Journey times will be so long on the DLR I really don't understand how much it will really benefit Thamsmead. It might still be quicker to catch bus to Abbey Wood and jump on Elizabeth Line.

It's unlikely to be that cheap considering it will require building a new rail tunnel under the Thames. I would imagine the main reason it's progressing where other projects aren't, besides providing a rail service to an area that doesn't have one, is its potential to enable lots of new housing West of Thamesmead and around Beckton Riverside. (Although to be honest, considering Thamesmead sits on a floodplain, I think it'd be rather more sensible to open the area West of Thamesmead as public parkland, and build somewhere a bit higher up).

There is big push to develop wasteland in the far east of London, along the Thames estuary. I think it is misguided policy. London has still a lot of undeveloped sites closer to central zones, and less vulnerable to sea level rise. I worry how many of this developments will become sink estates (in literal and proverbial sense ).

BLE would allow for densification a lot closer to central London. It would provide a lot more and much better connected homes. The only problem is that TfL can't afford it so have to settle for DLR to Tahmesmead, if they want to build anything in the next decade or so.

 

[stuu]

Other option would be station in a trench, with space left for future tunneling under the river, to Thamesmead and Abbey Wood.

But this is London not Paris, short term cheap fixes will have to do. So we will end up with suboptimal DLR extension.

You would still need to leave a big empty space in the middle of the development for a project that might never happen. 4 car trains every 15 minutes would hardly be the ideal anyway

 

[465fan]

You would still need to leave a big empty space in the middle of the development for a project that might never happen. 4 car trains every 15 minutes would hardly be the ideal anyway

I don't know, surely just building a two platform underground station with a scissor crossover to allow trains to arrive / depart from either platform (same as Lewisham), would mean you could just keep boring through later.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Journey times will be so long on the DLR I really don't understand how much it will really benefit Thamsmead. It might still be quicker to catch bus to Abbey Wood and jump on Elizabeth Line.

Journeys won't be that long. For people who want the Elizabeth line, I'd expect Thamesmead to Custom House on the DLR to take 14-15 minutes. That's based on Thamesmead to Beckton Riverside is a similar distance to Woolwich Arsenal to King George V, which takes the DLR 4 minutes, and Beckton Riverside to Custom House should be the same as Beckton to Custom House - currently 10 minutes).

Doing that journey via Abbey Wood takes 7 minutes to Abbey Wood on the SL3 plus 7 minutes Abbey Wood to Custom House on the Elizabeth line - so it works out about the same time. But it will be a lot cheaper on the DLR because no need to pay a separate bus fare, plus no risk of the bus getting caught in traffic.

For people who want to change to the Jubilee line, or want destinations on the DLR itself, or need to get to Stratford, it'll be significantly quicker because the DLR will take you direct to Canning Town, so one fewer change. And still cheaper.

Plus there's the attraction of not having to use a potentially unreliable/uncomfortable bus.

 

[Thirteen]

I don't get why DLR Thamesmead is considered cheap when West London Orbital which is using an existing line is in theory cheaper.

 

[465fan]

I don't get why DLR Thamesmead is considered cheap when West London Orbital which is using an existing line is in theory cheaper.

There's so much about the West London Orbital not to like, especially the impact on precious freight capacity that's left. Unless there will be a huge rebuild at Acton Wells, and a efforts to do a stack of work for a station at Old Oak Common, it seems like a show pony.

 

[Brooke]

I don't get why DLR Thamesmead is considered cheap when West London Orbital which is using an existing line is in theory cheaper.

Remember that DLR Thamesmead is in essence a scheme to unlock huge developments at Beckton and Thamesmead.

So the benefits case will be significantly enhanced by developers contributions (cost reduction) and by increase in population (topline economic / revenue growth).

 

[SynthD]

I don't get why DLR Thamesmead is considered cheap when West London Orbital which is using an existing line is in theory cheaper.

It’s not just price, but price paid by the public sector. This project unlocks housing as a source of funding. It may seem unnecessary, because that housing is not yet in place. People said the same about Barking Riverside and it’s worth looking how much has been built there so far.

 

[Russel]

It’s not just price, but price paid by the public sector. This project unlocks housing as a source of funding. It may seem unnecessary, because that housing is not yet in place. People said the same about Barking Riverside and it’s worth looking how much has been built there so far.

"If you build it, they will come."