DLR Thamesmead extension Consultation

[DynamicSpirit]

Well, especially since the buses were intended to be a tram which would give a faster and more useful service to the wider area from Ilford down to the Riverside, but it was descoped and the EL-series buses take ages to actually get to the station.

Indeed. The proposed (if I recall correctly) Ilford-Bexleyheath [*] DLR line would have been absolutely transformational. Unfortunately, it would've been very expensive to build and TfL doesn't have that kind of money floating around

[*] Personally I'd have been slightly more ambitious and started it from Newbury Park, using old passenger route to Ilford.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Indeed. The proposed (if I recall correctly) Ilford-Bexleyheath [*] DLR line would have been absolutely transformational. Unfortunately, it would've been very expensive to build and TfL doesn't have that kind of money floating around

[*] Personally I'd have been slightly more ambitious and started it from Newbury Park, using old passenger route to Ilford.

I don't think it was DLR, I thought it was more traditional light rail like Croydon Tramlink.
But, yes, it's a huge loss - now, if they'd built that instead of Silvertown tunnel!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I don't think it was DLR, I thought it was more traditional light rail like Croydon Tramlink.
But, yes, it's a huge loss - now, if they'd built that instead of Silvertown tunnel!

After reading that I was curious enough to poke around in my copies of the documents TfL sent out in 2015 when they were working on river crossings proposals, and found this, which seems to imply at least one of their proposals was for a DLR line - though it's possible they may have also considered a tram line, as this was presented as just one of several options and I can't recall what the others were.




(Image shows a map produced by TfL around - as I recall - 2015 showing a proposed DLR line Ilford->Barking->Gallions Reach->Thamesmead->Abbey Wood->Bexleyheath Station->Bexleyheath Town Centre, which they released as one possible option for new Thames river crossings in the area).

 

[AlastairFraser]

After reading that I was curious enough to poke around in my copies of the documents TfL sent out in 2015 when they were working on river crossings proposals, and found this, which seems to imply at least one of their proposals was for a DLR line - though it's possible they may have also considered a tram line, as this was presented as just one of several options and I can't recall what the others were.


View attachment 152841

Interesting. I remember the ELT lines being indicated as a tram on a London 2050 transit map that circulated around, but marked separately from a "Greenwich Waterfront Transit" south of the Thames.

Found it - it was on a 2004 image created to show TfL's prediction for a 2016 tube map.
Apologies for the poor resolution, but here it is.

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened for @brad465 to update

 

[brad465]

The consultation for this extension received overwhelming support and TfL want to push ahead with it:

TfL to push forward with DLR extension after consultation

Transport for London (TfL) has announced plans to move forward with a Docklands Light Railway extension from Gallions Reach to Thamesmead, via Beckton Riverside, following overwhelming public support for the project.

www.railmagazine.com

Transport for London (TfL) has announced plans to move forward with a Docklands Light Railway extension from Gallions Reach to Thamesmead, via Beckton Riverside, following overwhelming public support for the project.

The proposed extension, which will include two new DLR stations and a tunnel under the River Thames, aims to unlock the development of up to 30,000 new homes and create thousands of jobs in the area. The project is seen as a crucial step in addressing London’s housing crisis and boosting the local economy.

A recent consultation revealed strong support for the DLR extension, with 58% of respondents stating it would improve local journey times and 75% believing it would enhance connectivity to wider London. TfL also conducted polling in key areas, finding that 85% of residents supported the proposals.

The extension is expected to significantly improve public transport links in Thamesmead and Beckton Riverside. It will also connect the two areas to other parts of London, including Stratford, the Isle of Dogs, and the city centre, via the Jubilee and Elizabeth lines.

The consultation also revealed a strong demand for the DLR extension to go even further, extending to Bexley, Belvedere and Abbey Wood.

TfL will now develop a business case for the project, with construction potentially starting as early as 2028 and the extension opening to passengers in the early 2030s. The project is expected to require funding from a combination of public and private sources which will include TfL as well as other local and regional sources, although it has yet to specify any potential sources. However, Greenwich Council has expressed its own doubts on whether it would be able to invest in the project due to its ongoing financial issues.

Mayor of London Sadiq Khan welcomed the news, stating that the DLR extension will "unlock huge opportunities for London" and support the creation of thousands of jobs. Local leaders from the Royal Borough of Greenwich and the London Borough of Newham also expressed their enthusiasm for the project.

Alex Williams, TfL's Chief Customer and Strategy Officer, said: “It is great to see support to extend the DLR from Gallions Reach to Thamesmead via Beckton Riverside, which presents a crucial opportunity to boost connectivity by linking two major growth areas with two new accessible stations.

“We will now progress work on plans for the cross-river extension of the DLR, which could see customers benefit from the early 2030s, and continue to discuss funding options with all parties.”

TfL is also exploring options for a bus transit scheme between Woolwich and Abbey Wood via Thamesmead, further enhancing connectivity in the area.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==

Aside from that I guess they haven't considered the Hammersmith and City possibility, my reaction to that 15tph an hour on the DLR is... Uh???? How can that be possible? Where would all those extra DLR trains run to? I would imagine that would cause chaos at Canning Town if you try to add all those trains to the existing Beckton trains. The only way I can see it being possible is if TfL build a triangle junction near Gallions Reach for the new extension, so that some of of the Thamesmead trains head for Canning Town/whereever and others are simply Thamesmead-Beckton shuttles - which is not going to be very useful to anyone.

I have also wondered about Beckton station after such an extension. If I had my way I'd close it and encourage its passengers to travel to any of Beckton Park, Cyprus or Gallions reach, however it is a very well used station, more than any of the aforementioned ones, so would face stiff opposition. What might be worth trying is a 50/50 split, half to Beckton, half to Thamesmead, but would 6-7tph for each route be enough?

 

[Taunton]

There are now two services on the Beckton DLR line for most of the day, half to Tower Gateway and half to Canning Town "Low Level", these latter to be extended to Stratford International when sufficient new stock arrives, so the ability to split the service at the outer end as well is readily there. They are poorly timed we notice, the one eastbound starting at Canning Town commonly follows close behind the through one from Tower, with then a longer interval until the cycle repeats, so lots of scope for improving capacity. The DLR line has also lost a lot of its usage west of Custom House, with many transferring to the Elizabeth line there, which surely, via Abbey Wood and the bus network from there, gives better coverage of Thamesmead.

The DLR terminal station at Beckton had a new and substantial bus interchange built some years ago, which always has a lot of buses in there but not that many bus passengers, it generally seeming quicker from that area if taking a bus to go to one of the other, more direct DLR stations. The fact that trains leave Beckton station pointed in completely the opposite direction to that they are eventually travelling does limit its timesaving potential.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I have also wondered about Beckton station after such an extension. If I had my way I'd close it and encourage its passengers to travel to any of Beckton Park, Cyprus or Gallions reach, however it is a very well used station, more than any of the aforementioned ones, so would face stiff opposition. What might be worth trying is a 50/50 split, half to Beckton, half to Thamesmead, but would 6-7tph for each route be enough?

Beckton station is just over 600 m from Cyprus station - so, less than 10 minute's walk. So it does rather look like Cyprus station might provide a good enough option to justify closing Beckton, particularly if footpaths etc. to Cyprus were improved and any buses that terminate at Beckton from the North were extended to Cyprus (are there any such bus routes?).

Certainly almost anyone who comes to Beckton from the housing just South of the station could easily use Cyprus instead. The problem is, for anyone approaching Beckton on foot from the North (which I guess would mostly mean, the local retail parks), that 10 minutes is added to the walk to Beckton.

 

[ScotGG]

The consultation was amusing. Should there be better transport? So obvs say yes. Then DLR or nothing was the options. Talk about pre-decided! It's such a poor scheme not linking to Abbey Wood.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==

Certainly almost anyone who comes to Beckton from the housing just South of the station could easily use Cyprus instead. The problem is, for anyone approaching Beckton on foot from the North (which I guess would mostly mean, the local retail parks), that 10 minutes is added to the walk to Beckton.

Surely those retail parks next to Beckton station will be built on with thousands of homes? It'd be very odd to extend in one direction to enable new homes then fail to plan for similar beside the existing station.

That will reduce tph on a possible Thamesmead branch which makes it even less desirable. As many have said, Thamesmead residents will be better heading to Abbey Wood for onward travel on the Elizabeth line compared to the DLR so it's hard to see the point of it with relatively low tph and sluggish journey times.

 

[Wolfie]

The consultation was amusing. Should there be better transport? So obvs say yes. Then DLR or nothing was the options. Talk about pre-decided! It's such a poor scheme not linking to Abbey Wood.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==


Surely those retail parks next to Beckton station will be built on with thousands of homes? It'd be very odd to extend in one direction to enable new homes then fail to plan for similar beside the existing station.

That will reduce tph on a possible Thamesmead branch which makes it even less desirable. As many have said, Thamesmead residents will be better heading to Abbey Wood for onward travel on the Elizabeth line compared to the DLR so it's hard to see the point of it with relatively low tph and sluggish journey times.

If you'd ever experienced road traffic around there (l had an ex who lived in Thamesmead for a while) you'd know why the DLR option was popular....

 

[Taunton]

Surely those retail parks next to Beckton station will be built on with thousands of homes?

Actually the opposite. There is a current issue with one of the major retail park owners there wanting to clear it out and build warehousing - something never good for public transport usage. Described here:

DIY chain fights plans to demolish retail park

DIY chain B&Q is fighting a planning application that could see Beckton's Gateway Retail Park demolished to make way for offices.

www.newhamrecorder.co.uk

UrBox's application proposes to undertake a major redevelopment of the site, turning four units into offices, and another four units into flexible industrial and warehousing space.

 

[Sunil_P]

Barking Riverside opened just over two years ago. Why isn't there a ferry link to the opposite bank at Thamesmead, similar to the one to/from Canary Wharf?

 

[edwin_m]

Beckton station is just over 600 m from Cyprus station - so, less than 10 minute's walk. So it does rather look like Cyprus station might provide a good enough option to justify closing Beckton, particularly if footpaths etc. to Cyprus were improved and any buses that terminate at Beckton from the North were extended to Cyprus (are there any such bus routes?).

Certainly almost anyone who comes to Beckton from the housing just South of the station could easily use Cyprus instead. The problem is, for anyone approaching Beckton on foot from the North (which I guess would mostly mean, the local retail parks), that 10 minutes is added to the walk to Beckton.

Maybe if the aspiration for an extension northwards towards Dagenham is realised, this might provide enough station coverage to allow Beckton to be closed.

 

[SynthD]

Barking Riverside opened just over two years ago. Why isn't there a ferry link to the opposite bank at Thamesmead, similar to the one to/from Canary Wharf?

The hotel subsidises the ferry, and the housing estate doesn’t.

 

[Brooke]

Barking Riverside opened just over two years ago. Why isn't there a ferry link to the opposite bank at Thamesmead, similar to the one to/from Canary Wharf?

This is a great question - and seems to go back to the “TFL have pre-ordained it to be so” comment above.

As an investor in the area, I expected to be consulted on a range of options, and anticipated to see the cheap solution of an Uber boat jetty being one of them.

Yet the consultation completely ignored the existence of the Uber boat zooming by and just asks about DLR and fast bus.

Does anyone have an insight into the mind of TFL, why Overground + Boat for Barking Riverside, but DLR sans Boat for Thamesmead?

 

[Busaholic]

Barking Riverside opened just over two years ago. Why isn't there a ferry link to the opposite bank at Thamesmead, similar to the one to/from Canary Wharf?

Because there are no merchant bankers in either Barking or Thamesmead.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Barking Riverside opened just over two years ago. Why isn't there a ferry link to the opposite bank at Thamesmead, similar to the one to/from Canary Wharf?

Maybe because a Barking-Thamesmead ferry would be very expensive to operate and very few foot passengers would use it? There's likely to be almost no market for travel specifically between Barking Riverside and Thamesmead, so most of the potential market would be people who need to travel further. But anyone doing so would need to change to another mode of transport to complete their journey, and there's very little to tempt people to do that: On the Thamesmead side you basically have some buses. On the Barking Riverside side, you have a rail service that only runs every 15 minutes and doesn't even go into central London.

By way of comparison, the Woolwich Ferry typically attracts just a couple of foot passengers on each ferry (along with lots of cars).

 

[telstarbox]

For most pedestrians the Woolwich Tunnel will be faster than waiting for the ferry to dock at both ends.

 

[ScotGG]

If you'd ever experienced road traffic around there (l had an ex who lived in Thamesmead for a while) you'd know why the DLR option was popular....

I take the bus from Thamesmead to Abbey Wood and Woolwich every week. The roads have bus lanes most of the way. Currently some roadworks but normally it's one the smoothest bits of any journey I make.

 

[Wolfie]

I take the bus from Thamesmead to Abbey Wood and Woolwich every week. The roads have bus lanes most of the way. Currently some roadworks but normally it's one the smoothest bits of any journey I make.

Sounds like things have improved a little, TY. It was always better than the onward stretch to Woolwich and Greenwich though.

 

[Taunton]

For most pedestrians the Woolwich Tunnel will be faster than waiting for the ferry to dock at both ends.

It is. Although even there the foot tunnel is deserted for much of the time (unlike the Greenwich one, which serves a useful purpose). The various buses on the north side at North Woolwich likewise normally arrive and depart empty.

Barking Riverside opened just over two years ago. Why isn't there a ferry link to the opposite bank at Thamesmead, similar to the one to/from Canary Wharf?

That one is hardly used as well, outside commuter times to Canary Wharf it often has just one passenger (if there's nobody going either way the boatman doesn't bother with a trip). It's paid for by the hotel on the south bank.

 

[Via Bank]

The lifts at the Woolwich Tunnel have been broken for several years. There is no sign of them getting fixed any time soon. So that may go some way to explain why it is so deserted by comparison.

 

[Wolfie]

The lifts at the Woolwich Tunnel have been broken for several years. There is no sign of them getting fixed any time soon. So that may go some way to explain why it is so deserted by comparison.

London media has reported agreement for financing a repair between the two relevant councils (Newham and Greenwich) to be completed by Jan 25. The former was apparently previously the issue.

 

[Taunton]

What little use the Woolwich foot tunnel used to have after the docks closed 50 years ago has been lost, principally by the DLR extending alongside into Woolwich. It's quite ghostly to walk through it late at night, I assure you - and even more if you go down into it if you see a large ship approaching, and hear its propellers just above you ! But also, there's not a lot of commercial connection between the two Thames banks, they live parallel lives. The Blackwall Tunnel looks like a busy exception, but I suspect most users are travelling quite a distance.

 

[ScotGG]

The thing about Woolwich foot tunnel is that either side will look radically different in 10 years. Thousands more homes in close proximity either bank of the river. It'll be a tad busier I suspect after that. No longer will the southern end be almost hidden either but opened up.

If they get it right the south end and perhaps the north could also be a buzzing area with new places to eat, drink and watch the world go by beside the river.

 

[Busaholic]

What little use the Woolwich foot tunnel used to have after the docks closed 50 years ago has been lost, principally by the DLR extending alongside into Woolwich. It's quite ghostly to walk through it late at night, I assure you - and even more if you go down into it if you see a large ship approaching, and hear its propellers just above you ! But also, there's not a lot of commercial connection between the two Thames banks, they live parallel lives. The Blackwall Tunnel looks like a busy exception, but I suspect most users are travelling quite a distance.

I'm not saying I don't believe you about hearing the propellers, but how clear is it?

 

[Recessio]

One thing I couldn't see clearly mentioned in the consultation: does the DLR extension going ahead mean an extension to the Goblin Suffragette line is dead?

 

[stuu]

One thing I couldn't see clearly mentioned in the consultation: does the DLR extension going ahead mean an extension to the Goblin Suffragette line is dead?

Has it ever been officially alive?

 

[edwin_m]

One thing I couldn't see clearly mentioned in the consultation: does the DLR extension going ahead mean an extension to the Goblin Suffragette line is dead?

I can't see how an extension over the Thames is even possible. Barking Riverside is elevated, but not elevated enough to continue onto a bridge high enough to clear shipping. Demolishing it to build a ramp down to surface and into tunnel would also take up much of the area assigned for new housing.

 

[DGP]

Aside from that I guess they haven't considered the Hammersmith and City possibility, my reaction to that 15tph an hour on the DLR is... Uh???? How can that be possible? Where would all those extra DLR trains run to? I would imagine that would cause chaos at Canning Town if you try to add all those trains to the existing Beckton trains. The only way I can see it being possible is if TfL build a triangle junction near Gallions Reach for the new extension, so that some of of the Thamesmead trains head for Canning Town/whereever and others are simply Thamesmead-Beckton shuttles - which is not going to be very useful to anyone.

I think that triangle junction would actually be a very good idea - there could be trains from Canning Town and other points to the west directly to Thamesmead, other trains directly to Beckton and/or some that "bounced" into Beckton and then on towards Thamesmead - automated DLR trains don't need the driver to change ends so the station stop shouldn't take noticeably longer than other intermediate station stops.