DLR Thamesmead extension Consultation

[DynamicSpirit]

I think that triangle junction would actually be a very good idea - there could be trains from Canning Town and other points to the west directly to Thamesmead, other trains directly to Beckton and/or some that "bounced" into Beckton and then on towards Thamesmead - automated DLR trains don't need the driver to change ends so the station stop shouldn't take noticeably longer than other intermediate station stops.

I can see the attraction of a triangle junction for operational flexibility, but I'm sceptical whether the timetable would work the way you're suggesting. The problem is any train that goes directly to Thamesmead is likely to catch up with, and possibly overtake, a preceding train that goes via Beckton. That would make for a very uneven timetable at Thamesmead, and might mean that almost no-one uses the via Beckton trains between Thamesmead and Beckton. Plus you'd have a lot of conflicting moves constricting the timetable. And doesn't the DLR still often run with a 'driver' at the front of the train in the evenings? (I know they used to, but haven't travelled much on the DLR for several years)

 

[DGP]

I can see the attraction of a triangle junction for operational flexibility, but I'm sceptical whether the timetable would work the way you're suggesting. The problem is any train that goes directly to Thamesmead is likely to catch up with, and possibly overtake, a preceding train that goes via Beckton. That would make for a very uneven timetable at Thamesmead, and might mean that almost no-one uses the via Beckton trains between Thamesmead and Beckton. Plus you'd have a lot of conflicting moves constricting the timetable. And doesn't the DLR still often run with a 'driver' at the front of the train in the evenings? (I know they used to, but haven't travelled much on the DLR for several years)

I wouldn't say the DLR often runs with the driver at the front in the evenings but I have seen it happen.

And the way that I had it worked out in my head was that the daytime service between Canning Town and Beckton is every 5 minutes but trains have mostly emptied out before getting to Beckton - in my experience anyway - so I was thinking that you would be able to have a 10 minute service to Beckton and a 10 minute service to Thamesmead directly, without calling at Beckton. The evening service between Canning Town and Beckton is every 10 minutes and it was that I envisaged could "bounce" out of Beckton and continue to Thamesmead, so retaining the (at worst) 10 minute frequency at all stations on that branch all day long.

 

[SynthD]

The A road goes over the Beckton branch in a green tunnel. It would be simpler to run a train into the depot and out towards the other direction rather than try to go under the A road to make the triangle.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I wouldn't say the DLR often runs with the driver at the front in the evenings but I have seen it happen.

If it does happen even occasionally, then TfL will need to design the timetable to allow for the possibility of a driver needing to change ends for any train that might sometimes have a driver, even if that service usually doesn't.

And the way that I had it worked out in my head was that the daytime service between Canning Town and Beckton is every 5 minutes but trains have mostly emptied out before getting to Beckton - in my experience anyway - so I was thinking that you would be able to have a 10 minute service to Beckton and a 10 minute service to Thamesmead directly, without calling at Beckton. The evening service between Canning Town and Beckton is every 10 minutes and it was that I envisaged could "bounce" out of Beckton and continue to Thamesmead, so retaining the (at worst) 10 minute frequency at all stations on that branch all day long.

OK, I get that reasoning. So under that plan, Thamesmead via Beckton trains would never be interspersed with Thamesmead direct trains, so no problem of trains catching up with each other. My suspicion though is that it's unnecessary because once the extension to Thamesmead happens, numbers using the line will shoot up and the overall evening frequency will go up to a train every 4-5 minutes on that branch - frequent enough to send just half of those trains to Thamesmead. (As I recall, TfL's consultation mentioned 15tph which is what makes me suspect the daytime plan is a train every 4 minutes).

 

[DGP]

OK, I get that reasoning. So under that plan, Thamesmead via Beckton trains would never be interspersed with Thamesmead direct trains, so no problem of trains catching up with each other. My suspicion though is that it's unnecessary because once the extension to Thamesmead happens, numbers using the line will shoot up and the overall evening frequency will go up to a train every 4-5 minutes on that branch - frequent enough to send just half of those trains to Thamesmead. (As I recall, TfL's consultation mentioned 15tph which is what makes me suspect the daytime plan is a train every 4 minutes).

I hadn't seen the 15 tph mentioned anywhere, that's interesting. So Canning Town could get very busy then

 

[jon81uk]

And doesn't the DLR still often run with a 'driver' at the front of the train in the evenings? (I know they used to, but haven't travelled much on the DLR for several years)

If it does happen even occasionally, then TfL will need to design the timetable to allow for the possibility of a driver needing to change ends for any train that might sometimes have a driver, even if that service usually doesn't.

They are never driving, just staff have the option to sit at the front seat and push the button to close the doors (after checking the platform mirror to ensure its clear) instead of using the buttons by the doors. Generally they might choose to sit more in the evening when the trains are quieter and therefore can check its ready to depart using the mirror only, also fewer passengers to do ticket checks on or are just feeling lazy and don't want to stand.
If they are actually controlling the train and driving then it needs approval from control first which would give more than enough time to change ends. Whereas doing their normal duty of closing doors could be done from any door and if they want to be seated for the rest of the journey they could move up at a station.

 

[Smod]

They are never driving, just staff have the option to sit at the front seat and push the button to close the doors (after checking the platform mirror to ensure its clear) instead of using the buttons by the doors. Generally they might choose to sit more in the evening when the trains are quieter and therefore can check its ready to depart using the mirror only, also fewer passengers to do ticket checks on or are just feeling lazy and don't want to stand.
If they are actually controlling the train and driving then it needs approval from control first which would give more than enough time to change ends. Whereas doing their normal duty of closing doors could be done from any door and if they want to be seated for the rest of the journey they could move up at a station.

As this is relevant to discussions about potentially turning trains at Beckton, I'll respond to this point as I think arrangements to use the front seat are a bit more formal than personal preference.

I'm not an expert on the subject, but from observations I believe that use of the front seat is standard practice in these circumstances:
- Late night on Thursday / Friday / Saturday / Sunday (at least)
- Busy rush hour trains (presumably due to crowds in doorways)
- Other times when instructed by their Control - this does happen
- Travelling westbound in the eastbound Bank to Shadwell tunnel section (I think this involves use of more of the controls - not just the door and start buttons)

It's also common practice, if not standard, when West Ham have home games. Again presumably due to crowds.

(As an aside, and without wishing to drag things off topic, with temporary use of 2-car trains on some lines the sight lines for the platform mirrors at some stations are problematic. In these cases staff are having to keep moving from the front seat to the door controls and back again to close the doors. And at Blackwell station the mirrors are currently behind a hoarding).

 

[DGP]

As this is relevant to discussions about potentially turning trains at Beckton, I'll respond to this point as I think arrangements to use the front seat are a bit more formal than personal preference.

I'm not an expert on the subject, but from observations I believe that use of the front seat is standard practice in these circumstances:
- Late night on Thursday / Friday / Saturday / Sunday (at least)
- Busy rush hour trains (presumably due to crowds in doorways)
- Other times when instructed by their Control - this does happen
- Travelling westbound in the eastbound Bank to Shadwell tunnel section (I think this involves use of more of the controls - not just the door and start buttons)

It's also common practice, if not standard, when West Ham have home games. Again presumably due to crowds.

I think the key phrase there is "when instructed by their Control". I don't think it automatically happens late at night though I can understand circumstances that may prompt this, and I regularly get the "driving seat" when heading out of Bank and don't normally have company, but I do get your general point about there being multiple reasons why the DLR may require their Operator to be in the driving seat. And yes, this would impact "bouncing" trains in and out of Beckton.

 

[Taunton]

Operators using the front controls departing Bank station instead of working from the doorway was banned there after the trap & drag incident (RAIB report para 87):

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/59c11bb840f0b60d848fd98e/R122017_170921_Bank.pdf

Regarding reversing of trains, this can be achieved very quickly when working from the door. You can see reversal times of 20 seconds, no more than a normal station stop, when services have been disrupted.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Operators using the front controls departing Bank station instead of working from the doorway was banned there after the trap & drag incident (RAIB report para 87):

Does this mean that on instances where a system issue requires manual driving out of Bank, they now have to provide two crew for each departure?

 

[Taunton]

Does this mean that on instances where a system issue requires manual driving out of Bank, they now have to provide two crew for each departure?

No. Drive in "manually", which means more "Supervised", able to apply the emergency brakes and/or sound the horn. Stop, open doors, close the console, go back to first door for departure. Close the train doors, close the operators' door, then go to the front console, open it, and drive. Such a combination would be extremely unusual.

What had developed when it was a choice was operating from the front when "it's warmer up here". Notably the Bank incident happened late evening in early February.

Operation westbound "wrong line" from the tunnel portal into Bank, not often but which is sometimes done if it aids catching up delays, is done from the front to be ready with these alerts, as it was noticed waiting passengers were unprepared and too close to a train entering from the opposite direction to normal.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Thank you... seems an awkward way of doing it doesn't it?

 

[Cowley]

Ok. Just a gentle reminder that this thread is about the extension. If anyone wants to start a separate discussion we can always move some posts over if you give us a list.

Thanks

 

[whoosh]

As this is relevant to discussions about potentially turning trains at Beckton, I'll respond to this point as I think arrangements to use the front seat are a bit more formal than personal preference.

I'm not an expert on the subject, but from observations I believe that use of the front seat is standard practice in these circumstances:
- Late night on Thursday / Friday / Saturday / Sunday (at least)
- Busy rush hour trains (presumably due to crowds in doorways)
- Other times when instructed by their Control - this does happen
- Travelling westbound in the eastbound Bank to Shadwell tunnel section (I think this involves use of more of the controls - not just the door and start buttons)

It's also common practice, if not standard, when West Ham have home games. Again presumably due to crowds.

(As an aside, and without wishing to drag things off topic, with temporary use of 2-car trains on some lines the sight lines for the platform mirrors at some stations are problematic. In these cases staff are having to keep moving from the front seat to the door controls and back again to close the doors. And at Blackwell station the mirrors are currently behind a hoarding).

No. Drive in "manually", which means more "Supervised", able to apply the emergency brakes and/or sound the horn. Stop, open doors, close the console, go back to first door for departure. Close the train doors, close the operators' door, then go to the front console, open it, and drive. Such a combination would be extremely unusual.

Add to that utter kerfuffle in that particular instance, that dispatching from a set of doors at regular station stop instead of the front console, means two door close cycles (the train doors, then the local door), and the resulting extension of dwell time, and one seriously wonders if the provision of a cab with monitors and bodyside cameras might be sensible?!