Distraught mother + pushchair trying to board full trains

[GodAtum]

I was watching a mother with a small pushchair trying to board very full SWT 412s at Clapham Junction during rush hour. She could not physically board any of the services. At first she was OK but after the 8th train she could not board she started to get very angry and shouting at the passengers and staff. She tried to ram her pushchair through the standing passengers by the door.

I was there until the 15th train she tried to board (but in a weird way because they are very often only 30 mins after I first saw her). I did feel sorry for her but I'm not sure what other options she had apart from wait for a few hours?

 

[RJ]

Sorry to be a pedant, but the last of the SWT 412s were withdrawn in 2005!

 

[SPADTrap]

If the trains really are that busy what can you do?

It may well be a nice gesture for staff to offer a taxi if she is worried about a hospital appointment or something!

 

[yorkie]

Pushchairs should be folded, however some people refuse to fold them or bring non-folding ones.

Doubling-back into Waterloo may resolve the issue though...

 

[bradders1983]

Sorry, but anyone with a pushchair trying to board a rush hour train at Clapham Junction is a bit of a moron.

 

[SPADTrap]

Pushchairs should be folded, however some people refuse to fold them or bring non-folding ones.

Doubling-back into Waterloo may resolve the issue though...

Last time I suggested that I got abused and told I was blind for not noticing that their child was asleep! I didn't fancy suggesting to wake it or wait it out!

 

[Deerfold]

She tried to ram her pushchair through the standing passengers by the door.

Unless they were blocking the door when there was space inside the train then any sympathy I might have had would have disappeared at this point.

 

[GodAtum]

Sorry 455s. The passengers where packed like sardines if any of you are familiar with the chronic overcrowding. Even if she was at the front of the queue to board there was not physically enough room for the pushchair.

I could guess she might have folded it after I left or even went doubled back to Waterloo.

 

[SPADTrap]

The only thing staff can do is to offer alternatives dependant on her reasons for travelling then, offer advice about the double back, declassify a train to move people down? (Not saying this would fit the busy trains of Clapham, but generally)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Often at busy times you could probably get a few extra people if only everyone would move down to the centres of the carriage. People don't have a problem doing this on the much more cramped tube services that run every few minutes but it doesn't seem to happen on 'proper' trains. Of course, journeys are generally shorter on the tube so it's less of an issue to be stood uncomfortably for only 5-10mins- and most people wouldn't try to get a pushchair on the Northern Line at rush hour, I hope!
Whether people could have moved inside more may depend on what the stock actually was, as it clearly wasn't a 412 as pointed out. If it was a 455 with the 'metro' style layout I'd say if it looks full then it probably is full- on a 450 on the other hand many of the 'regulars' seem reluctant to move down, perhaps because of the narrower aisle.

Funilly enough I saw a very similar incident on a much smaller scale yesterday, with a mother and pushchair trying to board a bus just as the local high school was kicking out. With a bus every 3-4 minutes, all low-floor, it took her 45 minutes (I wasn't stalking her, I was working on a garden near the stop!) to get on board simply because the schoolkids were crowded round the wheelchair/pushchair area, with about half the seats beyond being empty! :roll:

 

[yorkie]

..., declassify a train ....

These trains do not convey 1st class accommodation anyway.

 

[talltim]

A far more worrying situation happened at Sheffield a few years ago. A rammed 4 car Voyager (still Virgin then and probably recently replacing an HST) with people queueing vainly to get in every door. Parent got kid out of pushchair (kid old enough to stand) and put him on the train then tried to get on themselves, asking people to move down. station staff shout to everyone to keep clear and then they shut the doors with the parent on the outside. Passengers held the door open (one of the few times I think this would be an OK thing to do.) and managed to move down to let the guy on. Basically the station staff just wanted to get the train off whatever

 

[SPADTrap]

A far more worrying situation happened at Sheffield a few years ago. A rammed 4 car Voyager (still Virgin then and probably recently replacing an HST) with people queueing vainly to get in every door. Parent got kid out of pushchair (kid old enough to stand) and put him on the train then tried to get on themselves, asking people to move down. station staff shout to everyone to keep clear and then they shut the doors with the parent on the outside. Passengers held the door open (one of the few times I think this would be an OK thing to do.) and managed to move down to let the guy on. Basically the station staff just wanted to get the train off whatever

There comes a point where if staff didn't "force" the train departure (safely of course) then nothing would move. Staff rely on people not risking their children in this way I guess! Make sure there is space for both before you commit something like that!

 

[feline1]

If the trains really are that busy what can you do?

Invest in an adequate public transport infrastructure so the trains aren't that busy?

 

[jon0844]

My wife is travelling with our son to Sweden next month, going by train from St Albans to Gatwick Airport. Our son is two. He can walk, but he can also run off, so she'll be wanting him to be secured in his buggy when boarding and alighting - as she won't be able to get him on, away from the doors, then take on the folded buggy and a suitcase.

She is concerned that she won't have time to get the case on, or that he tries to get on/off the train when she's managing the case/buggy and falls.

I think for getting a baby on a train, being in a buggy is the safest way unless s/he is secured in another way, or carried.

However, once on we always take him out and fold the buggy, unless the train is virtually empty when it can be left by one of the doors (and moved if needed before approaching the next stop). I'm mindful of the fact that I don't want to ever be like some parents that do indeed push the buggy around and ask people to leave (or use the classic line as I once heard; 'Excuse me, you're in the buggy area' when pointing to the wheelchair symbol - and actually saying it to two elderly people who did actually move, but should have told the mum to ....

My wife is also worried about getting off at Gatwick, in that she'll take the buggy off backwards on to the platform, lock it, then need to get the suitcase off. She's fearful that the doors will close in this time*, even though I've said it should be there for about a minute at least - and is probably a staffed station so won't be dispatched until the doors are clear.

Thing is, I'm a lot more confident and wouldn't stress, but I know my wife might - and I can sympathise with other parents that will find something as simple as getting on or off a train a bit of a nightmare. And if you've had to wait for loads of trains to leave, I can also see the frustration turning into desperation. Given the mum mentioned here hadn't been trying to force the buggy through at the start, it does seem that this was the case and it's not just some arrogant mum that thinks she should be treated like royalty.

Believe me, I've seen those over the years. I even looked on Mumsnet once, and nearly had a heart attack! Thankfully, not all parents are like that.

* One reason is that she was with me when a FCC train driver closed the doors on people as they were still trying to get off a train at Hatfield (before the platform cameras were put in, mind) let alone others getting on. The doors did re-open, but I think this has made her worry about it happening again.

 

[SPADTrap]

My wife is travelling with our son to Sweden next month, going by train from St Albans to Gatwick Airport. Our son is two. He can walk, but he can also run off, so she'll be wanting him to be secured in his buggy when boarding and alighting - as she won't be able to get him on, away from the doors, then take on the folded buggy and a suitcase.

She is concerned that she won't have time to get the case on, or that he tries to get on/off the train when she's managing the case/buggy and falls.

I think for getting a baby on a train, being in a buggy is the safest way unless s/he is secured in another way, or carried.

However, once on we always take him out and fold the buggy, unless the train is virtually empty when it can be left by one of the doors (and moved if needed before approaching the next stop). I'm mindful of the fact that I don't want to ever be like some parents that do indeed push the buggy around and ask people to leave (or use the classic line as I once heard; 'Excuse me, you're in the buggy area' when pointing to the wheelchair symbol - and actually saying it to two elderly people who did actually move, but should have told the mum to ....

My wife is also worried about getting off at Gatwick, in that she'll take the buggy off backwards on to the platform, lock it, then need to get the suitcase off. She's fearful that the doors will close in this time*, even though I've said it should be there for about a minute at least - and is probably a staffed station so won't be dispatched until the doors are clear.

Thing is, I'm a lot more confident and wouldn't stress, but I know my wife might - and I can sympathise with other parents that will find something as simple as getting on or off a train a bit of a nightmare. And if you've had to wait for loads of trains to leave, I can also see the frustration turning into desperation. Given the mum mentioned here hadn't been trying to force the buggy through at the start, it does seem that this was the case and it's not just some arrogant mum that thinks she should be treated like royalty.

Believe me, I've seen those over the years. I even looked on Mumsnet once, and nearly had a heart attack! Thankfully, not all parents are like that.

* One reason is that she was with me when a FCC train driver closed the doors on people as they were still trying to get off a train at Hatfield (before the platform cameras were put in, mind) let alone others getting on. The doors did re-open, but I think this has made her worry about it happening again.

Some good points made there!

 

[A-driver]

My wife is travelling with our son to Sweden next month, going by train from St Albans to Gatwick Airport. Our son is two. He can walk, but he can also run off, so she'll be wanting him to be secured in his buggy when boarding and alighting - as she won't be able to get him on, away from the doors, then take on the folded buggy and a suitcase.

She is concerned that she won't have time to get the case on, or that he tries to get on/off the train when she's managing the case/buggy and falls.

I think for getting a baby on a train, being in a buggy is the safest way unless s/he is secured in another way, or carried.

However, once on we always take him out and fold the buggy, unless the train is virtually empty when it can be left by one of the doors (and moved if needed before approaching the next stop). I'm mindful of the fact that I don't want to ever be like some parents that do indeed push the buggy around and ask people to leave (or use the classic line as I once heard; 'Excuse me, you're in the buggy area' when pointing to the wheelchair symbol - and actually saying it to two elderly people who did actually move, but should have told the mum to ....

My wife is also worried about getting off at Gatwick, in that she'll take the buggy off backwards on to the platform, lock it, then need to get the suitcase off. She's fearful that the doors will close in this time*, even though I've said it should be there for about a minute at least - and is probably a staffed station so won't be dispatched until the doors are clear.

Thing is, I'm a lot more confident and wouldn't stress, but I know my wife might - and I can sympathise with other parents that will find something as simple as getting on or off a train a bit of a nightmare. And if you've had to wait for loads of trains to leave, I can also see the frustration turning into desperation. Given the mum mentioned here hadn't been trying to force the buggy through at the start, it does seem that this was the case and it's not just some arrogant mum that thinks she should be treated like royalty.

Believe me, I've seen those over the years. I even looked on Mumsnet once, and nearly had a heart attack! Thankfully, not all parents are like that.

* One reason is that she was with me when a FCC train driver closed the doors on people as they were still trying to get off a train at Hatfield (before the platform cameras were put in, mind) let alone others getting on. The doors did re-open, but I think this has made her worry about it happening again.

Not wishing to sound unsympathetic or harsh but taking a buggy, child and suitcase on a train by yourself is not easy. Staff won't deliberately close doors separating them but we also can't tell what everyone is actually doing and I tend not to spend too much time looking at the people on the platforms when running in to assess how much time they need to get on/who is together/who is travelling and who is just seeing people off etc so if people have boarded and someone walks away from the train (perhaps to pick up a case out of shot of the monitors) then I wouldn't think twice about closing doors as id assume they were just helping people on.

My point is that perhaps it's best to get a friend to travel with them to help or at least have someone go to St. Albans with them to help load things onto the train? I'm sure there will be other passengers willing to help getting off at gatwick?

And obviously travelling outside of the peak is pretty essential to reduce stress-even if that means getting up very early.

As for the Hatfield incident you mention, when people alight at Hatfield we can not see inside the train. All we can see is the side and people moving between the train and platform. Once there is a gap in people getting off its fair to assume that everyone is off who wants to get off and close the doors to avoid delays. We can't help it if not everyone has got off. Of course if people used the entire train and not just the one coach for Hatfield then people would get off far quicker and easier!

 

[SPADTrap]

Not wishing to sound unsympathetic or harsh but taking a buggy, child and suitcase on a train by yourself is not easy. Staff won't deliberately close doors separating them but we also can't tell what everyone is actually doing and I tend not to spend too much time looking at the people on the platforms when running in to assess how much time they need to get on/who is together/who is travelling and who is just seeing people off etc so if people have boarded and someone walks away from the train (perhaps to pick up a case out of shot of the monitors) then I wouldn't think twice about closing doors as id assume they were just helping people on.

My point is that perhaps it's best to get a friend to travel with them to help or at least have someone go to St. Albans with them to help load things onto the train? I'm sure there will be other passengers willing to help getting off at gatwick?

And obviously travelling outside of the peak is pretty essential to reduce stress-even if that means getting up very early.

As for the Hatfield incident you mention, when people alight at Hatfield we can not see inside the train. All we can see is the side and people moving between the train and platform. Once there is a gap in people getting off its fair to assume that everyone is off who wants to get off and close the doors to avoid delays. We can't help it if not everyone has got off. Of course if people used the entire train and not just the one coach for Hatfield then people would get off far quicker and easier!

Also good points!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Once there is a gap in people getting off its fair to assume that everyone is off who wants to get off and close the doors to avoid delays.

I can't agree with that at all.
Every time I catch a train that has a lot of people getting off a the station I am getting on at I end up starting to get on because there is a gap but have to then step back because more people are alighting. This is always the case without fail, so to assume a small gap means no one else is getting off is simply wrong. I realise you are in a difficult situation, and staff really should have the means to know for sure, but does it really harm to hold on just a couple of seconds?

 

[jon0844]

Not wishing to sound unsympathetic or harsh but taking a buggy, child and suitcase on a train by yourself is not easy. Staff won't deliberately close doors separating them but we also can't tell what everyone is actually doing and I tend not to spend too much time looking at the people on the platforms when running in to assess how much time they need to get on/who is together/who is travelling and who is just seeing people off etc so if people have boarded and someone walks away from the train (perhaps to pick up a case out of shot of the monitors) then I wouldn't think twice about closing doors as id assume they were just helping people on.

My point is that perhaps it's best to get a friend to travel with them to help or at least have someone go to St. Albans with them to help load things onto the train? I'm sure there will be other passengers willing to help getting off at gatwick?

And obviously travelling outside of the peak is pretty essential to reduce stress-even if that means getting up very early.

As for the Hatfield incident you mention, when people alight at Hatfield we can not see inside the train. All we can see is the side and people moving between the train and platform. Once there is a gap in people getting off its fair to assume that everyone is off who wants to get off and close the doors to avoid delays. We can't help it if not everyone has got off. Of course if people used the entire train and not just the one coach for Hatfield then people would get off far quicker and easier!

I can't go with her all the way to Gatwick and back as I'm working that day, but I will help at St Albans if staff let me on the platform. But there's a dispatcher there, so I am sure she'll be just fine. I also expect there is one at Gatwick.

And she's not travelling in the peak. Indeed, she's starting from St Albans specifically to avoid changing at King's Cross (easy to get off at KGX obviously with all the time in the world, but not so easy to get on at St Pancras or even to get to, given the lift has been out of service so many times we've been there).

I'm absolutely certain there will other people to help, but she's worried there won't be anyone else getting off at Gatwick. Extremely unlikely, but I can't convince her otherwise as I can't know for definite either! I did say that even if someone wasn't getting off, they could still help by taking the suitcase off, but then she'd wonder about what happens if the carriage is empty.

The incident at Hatfield was pretty unique and some time ago. It was platform 1, and the driver couldn't have seen a gap simply because there were people trying to get on too. It was more a case of the train being very busy for the time of day, and the driver presumably deciding enough was enough when such a large group needed to get off. This was a one off incident that has, however, made my wife always think about this when using trains.

 

[A-driver]

I can't agree with that at all.
Every time I catch a train that has a lot of people getting off a the station I am getting on at I end up starting to get on because there is a gap but have to then step back because more people are alighting. This is always the case without fail, so to assume a small gap means no one else is getting off is simply wrong. I realise you are in a difficult situation, and staff really should have the means to know for sure, but does it really harm to hold on just a couple of seconds?

Ok, so at what point should the driver close the doors? 5 sec gap, 10src, 20, 30, 60, 90...?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I count to ten. If nobody attempts to board or alight in that time then the doors get closed.

 

[jon0844]

You have my sympathy as you're in a position where you can't see what's going on, and I don't know the solution to that.

For the most part, given this was a one off event, I'd say drivers usually get it right though so it's not really a problem. And the only time I can imagine it's really bad at Hatfield, where a driver has to shut the doors on people getting on, is when there's football at Arsenal. I don't know if during this time, staff actually stand on the platform

For one thing, you need to have an easy way to see all of the doors. So more cameras and screens, less mirrors. You can then concentrate on the doors that still have lots of people nearby. Oh, and new rolling stock with cameras!

What about the internal door buttons being able to warn you that someone still wants to get off, and allow you to re-open the doors? If someone is still trying to get off, they will almost certainly try and press the button. You would still have control, to stop rush hour commuters pressing the button to let others on, but at least you'd know that someone onboard wants to get off.

By the way, I know such a modification isn't going to happen!

 

[talltim]

I always make a point of helping people with young children on and off trains. Makes me feel better is nothing else!

 

[A-driver]

I count to ten. If nobody attempts to board or alight in that time then the doors get closed.

So do I, but at places like Hatfield you can still count to 10 then have people start getting off again.

 

[dannypye9999]

I was watching a mother with a small pushchair trying to board very full SWT 412s at Clapham Junction during rush hour. She could not physically board any of the services. At first she was OK but after the 8th train she could not board she started to get very angry and shouting at the passengers and staff. She tried to ram her pushchair through the standing passengers by the door.

I was there until the 15th train she tried to board (but in a weird way because they are very often only 30 mins after I first saw her). I did feel sorry for her but I'm not sure what other options she had apart from wait for a few hours?

I see this all the time on Northerns Marple to Piccadilly services on Saturdays, mothers ramming pushchairs into a crowded service expecting everyone to start crushing even further when its already clear theyre crushed up as it is. Does it ever cross these womens lame little minds that taking the child out of the trolley and folding the thing up might help them board? And why do they wait until the busiest shopping days to go out shopping? Its like they sit around all week doing nothing watching Jeremy kyle and waiting until the busiest shopping day of the week rolls around so then they can go out and start complaining about it. Mothers holding up train schedules etc don't deserve a single ounce of my sympathy

 

[A-driver]

I see this all the time on Northerns Marple to Piccadilly services on Saturdays, mothers ramming pushchairs into a crowded service expecting everyone to start crushing even further when its already clear theyre crushed up as it is. Does it ever cross these womens lame little minds that taking the child out of the trolley and folding the thing up might help them board? And why do they wait until the busiest shopping days to go out shopping? Its like they sit around all week doing nothing watching Jeremy kyle and waiting until the busiest shopping day of the week rolls around so then they can go out and start complaining about it. Mothers holding up train schedules etc don't deserve a single ounce of my sympathy

The reason everyone is out shopping on a Saturday is because many people (including mothers actually) work during the week. Mothers arnt always unemployed or on maternity leave, many work or have family who work so those busy shopping days are the only days they get off altogether.

 

[jon0844]

I see this all the time on Northerns Marple to Piccadilly services on Saturdays, mothers ramming pushchairs into a crowded service expecting everyone to start crushing even further when its already clear theyre crushed up as it is. Does it ever cross these womens lame little minds that taking the child out of the trolley and folding the thing up might help them board? And why do they wait until the busiest shopping days to go out shopping? Its like they sit around all week doing nothing watching Jeremy kyle and waiting until the busiest shopping day of the week rolls around so then they can go out and start complaining about it. Mothers holding up train schedules etc don't deserve a single ounce of my sympathy

I think that's a little bit judgemental, even if it might be true in some cases (as I've witnessed myself, so I don't doubt you).

I have come to realise that things don't always go to plan when you've got a baby. With the best will in the world, despite planning your travel meticulously to avoid rush hours, known busy trains and so on - an emergency nappy change can be all it takes to miss the train you planned to get, or miss a bus etc.

And while some people might just be popping into town for shopping, what about a mum that is taking their child to the doctor for the latest checkup, injections or whatever? This Thursday, my son is seeing our doctor to check for food allergies. We'll drive, but not everyone has a car. And it's not really feasible to leave super early to avoid problems, or fair on the child, nor can you easily choose when you will get an appointment (we've waited some time for our one, and at 10am it could mean travel on public transport in rush hour).

Also, as I said above, having a baby strapped into a buggy (if they're very young) is more sensible and safer than having them roaming free.. Obviously as they get older, that changes and I'd argue that you wouldn't even need a buggy. Even at 26 months old, our son is quite happy to walk most of the time now, so we have gone out a few times without the buggy at all.

Edit; As A-Driver has pointed out, we both work in the week and our son is at nursery, so the weekend is when we can go out as a family. And if my wife takes some time off in the week (she works flexi time) then she's not watching Jeremy Kyle!

 

[DarloRich]

I see this all the time on Northerns Marple to Piccadilly services on Saturdays, mothers ramming pushchairs into a crowded service expecting everyone to start crushing even further when its already clear theyre crushed up as it is. Does it ever cross these womens lame little minds that taking the child out of the trolley and folding the thing up might help them board? And why do they wait until the busiest shopping days to go out shopping? Its like they sit around all week doing nothing watching Jeremy kyle and waiting until the busiest shopping day of the week rolls around so then they can go out and start complaining about it. Mothers holding up train schedules etc don't deserve a single ounce of my sympathy

I guess you don’t have children - you seem really quite angry, arrogant, judgemental and narrow minded. God forbid anyone should want to go out the same time that you do :roll:

EDIT although it is no different an attitude to several posters whose main point appears to be that people with children should not even dare travel at the same time as the sainted commuters. All for one and one for me eh?

 

[bradders1983]

I guess you don’t have children - you seem really quite angry, arrogant, judgemental and narrow minded. God forbid anyone should want to go out the same time that you do :roll:

EDIT although it is no different an attitude to several posters whose main point appears to be that people with children should not even dare travel at the same time as the sainted commuters. All for one and one for me eh?

Where has anyone said that? Obviously it isnt a sensible idea, that cannot be argued against.