• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Disruptive behaviour.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Barkston58

New Member
Joined
23 Feb 2022
Messages
3
Location
Leeds
My step son has been issued with a summons. He was in dispute with a ticket collector and is accused of being abusive and telling the collector to F OFF. He denies this but it's most likely he did say it.
So now he has this notice of prosecution for not having a ticket but also for the abusive behaviour. It will go to court for judgment and he will get a criminal record. Having a criminal record will have a impact on his current employment.
He says the witness statement is an exaggeration regarding his actions but they have two witnesses as to what happened so it's not looking good. Does any one know if he can settle this without it going to court or any other recommendations would be appreciated.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
29,756
Location
LBK
Which offences is he being charged under specifically? The summons will say.

It is very unusual for us to hear in this forum of people taken to court for abusing staff, normally the entire episode is disposed of with just the "no ticket" office whichever one they try and lay.
 

Barkston58

New Member
Joined
23 Feb 2022
Messages
3
Location
Leeds
Thanks for you response. I don't have the charge sheet but the charges are something like "not having a ticket" and "bring abusive to the staff member (or similar)". He is guilty of travelling without a ticket (he didn't have time to collect ticket before needing to board the train) He did report to the excess fare office to buy a ticket retrospectively but was directed to another member of the stations staff. Unfortunately my step son decided to argue with the staff member who escalated the "no fare" situation to a fixed penalty. Step son disputed this and called the collector incompetent in his work and effing idiot. When asked he refused to give his details and the transport police were called. He gave the officer his detail and they were passed to the rail company. At no stage was there any physical contact between the parties but the conversation did get argumentative.
I think my step son was in the wrong on both counts but a prosecution will lead to a criminal record and that will have an impact on his current employment.
Im looking for a way to settle this without going to court if that's possible.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
17,914
Location
0036
If the British Transport Police have become involved it's far less likely to settle out of court.

We really do need specific details of what the charges are though before we can give the best advice.
 

Fawkes Cat

Established Member
Joined
8 May 2017
Messages
5,353
We may be rather out of our depth here: given that the transport police were called, do you know if your son is being prosecuted by the railway, or by the police (which would presumably mean the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS))? If it's the police/CPS, I'm not sure that anyone here knows whether they are prepared to negotiate out of court settlements.

If it's the railway who are bringing the prosecution (and I think this is more likely) then an out of court settlement is possible, but is by no means guaranteed. If there is time before the hearing, then your son should write to the railway, accepting that they were in the wrong, explaining what they will do to avoid problems arising in future, and asking if the railway would be prepared to settle out of court for the cost of the railway ticket that he should have had plus any costs that the railway has incurred. The letter should be apologetic, courteous and short (someone has to read it!).

If the hearing is close - or if the letter doesn't come up with a positive response - then from time to time we hear of people managing to settle literally at the door of the court. Your son will need to arrive early, ask the court staff to point them towards whoever is prosecuting for the railway, and try to discuss to arrange a settlement there on the day.

But what if this doesn't work, your son does appear in court and is found guilty? In that case, he will be punished and may have a 'criminal record'. In our experience, fare-dodging (when that's the only charge) is invariably punished with a fine rather than with prison. But this case is aggravated by being abusive to the staff. Realistically, unless there's physical contact as well (which could be assault or a more serious charge) I cannot see that abusive language would lead to imprisonment. So if the matter goes to court, your son should expect a fine, plus compensation (the train fare) plus prosecution costs, plus court costs.

What about a 'criminal record'? There's a piece of legislation called the 'Rehabilitation of Offenders Act' which lays down that conviction for relatively minor offences shouldn't ruin offenders' lives for ever. It does this by ruling that offences become 'spent' after a fixed period of time, and after that period there's no need to mention them in most circumstances. There are, however, some circumstances when they don't become spent: these tend to involve times when someone might be in a position of great trust or power over someone else or their money - which means things like being a teacher, nurse, doctor, careworker and so on (a position of trust or power over someone) or a lawyer, accountant, a banker or someone working in finance, or someone handling cash in a shop (control over other people's money). In these cases even 'spent' convictions may have to be mentioned.

In terms of railway convictions, if your son is convicted under the railway byelaws (most likely byelaw 18 for the ticket and byelaw 6 for the behaviour) then my understanding is that the conviction becomes spent immediately - that is, he will be under no obligation to tell anyone about it. I also gather that in general byelaw convictions aren't included in the DBS system. If the conviction is under the Regulation of Railways Act, then I understand it to take a year for the conviction to become spent.

So having a 'criminal record' may not be an issue - even if your son does end up in court. But even a criminal record - for one offence - may not be a disaster. In our experience, many employers understand that people make mistakes from time to time. And one incident (even one incident where your son lost his temper) isn't a problem. What may be a problem is repeated misbehaviour - and employers can see trying to cover up something like a conviction as repeated misbehaviour.

So I would suggest that your son tries to find out beforehand what the impact of a conviction might be. If he is in a union at work, then they would be good people to ask. If not, then he may want to see if he can ask a colleague who he can trust not to pass this enquiry on to management (and to give him a sensible answer!). It might also be worth having a look at his contract / terms and conditions of employment to see if that gives a clear answer.

Hopefully this will provide an answer that reassures him. But since employment relies on trust between employer and employee, in most cases I think that if he is convicted he would be well advised to come clean to his employer. Whatever he has found out beforehand will hopefully help him decide whether to approach this as just passing information on to his employer in a spirit of openness, or as throwing himself on his employer's mercy.

In general, I would not expect one railway conviction to be career-ending - and probably not job-ending either. But your son should check carefully.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
17,914
Location
0036
The above is an excellent post. Some clarifications/amplifications if I may:

by the police (which would presumably mean the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS)
It will normally be the CPS yes.
There are, however, some circumstances when they don't become spent: these tend to involve times when someone might be in a position of great trust or power over someone else or their money - which means things like being a teacher, nurse, doctor, careworker and so on (a position of trust or power over someone) or a lawyer, accountant, a banker or someone working in finance, or someone handling cash in a shop (control over other people's money). In these cases even 'spent' convictions may have to be mentioned.
Applying to become a lawyer or an accountant does require a standard DBS check which will show spent convictions. Most bank staff or shop roles do not allow them. At banks, only the chief executive and some of the next level down of executive management would come under standard DBS checks.

It should be noted that under new rules arising from a Supreme Court human rights case, minor convictions which didn't result in a custodial sentence will now drop off even standard and enhanced DBS checks after at most 11 years. This is known as "filtering".
In terms of railway convictions, if your son is convicted under the railway byelaws (most likely byelaw 18 for the ticket and byelaw 6 for the behaviour) then my understanding is that the conviction becomes spent immediately - that is, he will be under no obligation to tell anyone about it. I also gather that in general byelaw convictions aren't included in the DBS system.
Technically, a conviction for railway byelaw breach is non-recordable so it doesn't (or shouldn't) appear on a criminal record at all, as opposed to appearing and immediately becoming spent. If, however, someone is convicted of it at the same time as being convicted of another recordable offence, then it will be recorded and, assuming the resolution is a fine, become spent after a year.
employers can see trying to cover up something like a conviction as repeated misbehaviour.
Indeed. I've worked in banking for many years and whilst we have never refused or sacked someone for a minor conviction such as common assault, rail fare evasion, or the like, we have done for people who didn't tell us they had such convictions and we later found out.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
114,021
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
We may be rather out of our depth here: given that the transport police were called, do you know if your son is being prosecuted by the railway, or by the police (which would presumably mean the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS))? If it's the police/CPS, I'm not sure that anyone here knows whether they are prepared to negotiate out of court settlements.

If I understand correctly, out of Court settlements are applicable only to private prosecutions, not those brought by the CPS (as there's nothing to settle with them - they haven't been wronged). Therefore if the CPS is involved, it's a case of it going ahead or it being withdrawn completely. If there's evidence and it's already passed the relevant "public interest" tests, then it's going to go ahead.

Thus if this is the case, paid-for legal advice would be sensible before proceeding, and it's probably, as others have said, outwith the scope of what the Forum would normally advise on.
 

Enthusiast

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2019
Messages
1,226
If action is to be taken concerning his behaviour the most likely offence he will be charged with (if the BTP and the CPS are involved) is under Section 5 of the Public Order Act. This covers "disorderly behaviour". The offence does not carry a custodial sentence and the maximum penalty is a fine of £1,000. From your description of the event and assuming he has no previous similar convictions the most likely sentence, if he is convicted, would be either a small fine or, more probably a "Conditional Discharge". This means there will be no punishment for the offence but if he commits any further offences within the period of the discharge (which can be between six months and three years, but twelve months is the norm) he will be punished not only for the new offence but this one will be revisited.

Under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act convictions dealt with by way of a fine are "spent" after 12 months (or six months if the defendant is aged under18). A conviction resulting in a Conditional Discharge is spent at the end of the discharge period.
 

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
15,463
Obv the OP will be able to clarify when the papers are checked, but I'm thinking isn't it actually likely that the railway are taking action ref the fare evasion, and the verbal abuse and 'attitude test failures' etc has been put in for good measure - to help secure a result and show the person in a bad light (probably correctly so as the OP accepts).

In which case the OP would be advised to start writing to the railway company ASAP with profuse apologies and requests to settle the matter - and be prepared to pay what is asked for, and as advised above going to the court to try and settle ahead of the hearing if that is what it takes.

The OP should make use of the advice usually given on various threads about how to word such an apology. eg the advice @Hadders often posts.
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
29,756
Location
LBK
Obv the OP will be able to clarify when the papers are checked, but I'm thinking isn't it actually likely that the railway are taking action ref the fare evasion, and the verbal abuse and 'attitude test failures' etc has been put in for good measure - to help secure a result and show the person in a bad light (probably correctly so as the OP accepts).

In which case the OP would be advised to start writing to the railway company ASAP with profuse apologies and requests to settle the matter - and be prepared to pay what is asked for, and as advised above going to the court to try and settle ahead of the hearing if that is what it takes.

The OP should make use of the advice usually given on various threads about how to word such an apology. eg the advice @Hadders often posts.
Have we seen a train company attempt a private prosecution for a public order offence? I’m not sure we have.

The OP must update us as soon as possible. If it is a summons issued by the police/CPS we are going to be unable to advise on the case.
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
5,342
Location
Reading
The equivalent of an out-of-court settlement would be a police caution - but it seems to be nearly always the train company that deals with these sorts of matters, even when the police provided assistance at the time.

Where abuse is added into the mix, obtaining an out-of-court settlement might include additionally offering an apology and some token financial compensation directly for the employee at the receiving end (which might take the form of a charitable donation).
 

skyhigh

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2014
Messages
6,919
Have we seen a train company attempt a private prosecution for a public order offence? I’m not sure we have.

The OP must update us as soon as possible. If it is a summons issued by the police/CPS we are going to be unable to advise on the case.
I suppose it could be a charge under Byelaw 6(1) or 6(2). Can't say I've heard of a TOC using it, but I know of occasions it's been used by BTP.
 

Barkston58

New Member
Joined
23 Feb 2022
Messages
3
Location
Leeds
Great responses thank you.
It's the railway company that's bringing the charges.
We sent his forms back in pleading guilty to not having a ticket. He's chosen to go to court over the abuse charge. The statement from the train staff member is very poor and has several contradictions in it. He wants to put his case to the magistrate. He does present well. I'll let you know the out come in a few months.
 

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
15,463
Great responses thank you.
It's the railway company that's bringing the charges.
We sent his forms back in pleading guilty to not having a ticket. He's chosen to go to court over the abuse charge. The statement from the train staff member is very poor and has several contradictions in it. He wants to put his case to the magistrate. He does present well. I'll let you know the out come in a few months.
Thanks - it will be informative to have an update in the fullness of time, not least for others in future.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top