Disruption: Contactless (Validity) & Delay Repay

[dasfvzcx]

Hi all,

Last week Wednesday, I was travelling from Reading to Zone 1 as I normally do, but when I got to Reading (already inside), I noticed all trains were cancelled to Paddington.

I'd used contactless and though normally would abandon had reason to try my hardest so eventually managed to get on a Waterloo train.

From Waterloo I went to the toilet (exiting the barrier), then back through the barriers with same xontactless took the Waterloo & City to bank, without scanning the contactless at the "reader" for that line.

The fare I paid was much higher than it'd normally be (not unsurprising!), but I thought I'd put Inna delay repay for the full amount to GWR (because disruption 2hr+).

Surprisingly they accepted this first time.

A few questions:
- technically, was in travelling in contravention of any law, because contactless isn't valid on Reading to Waterloo, or does the disruption muddy the water and/or make it legal? I assumed sanity would prevail in case I encountered problems.
- Legally does GWR only have to issue a refund for the amount I should have been charged by TfL (ignore for a moment whether the TfL amount is or isn't right for the alternative journey)?
- Legally, am I entitled to a refund of the "overpaid" TfL fees? I think in practice they would so that's not a question I think.
- Are there toilets on most/all trains from Reading to Waterloo? Didn't spot any.
- The TfL was confused. Unsurprisingly, it has Reading to Unknown, Waterloo to Unknown, which is expected, but Unknown to Bank was unexpected. Is it because I didn't use the scanner?

Someone else I was travelling with went through the barriers all the same as me, but got charged £1 more for the Unknown to Bank journey...

 

[JonathanH]

A few questions:
- technically, was in travelling in contravention of any law, because contactless isn't valid on Reading to Waterloo, or does the disruption muddy the water and/or make it legal? I assumed sanity would prevail in case I encountered problems.

Contactless is valid from Reading to Waterloo, but only for journeys which involve travel via West Drayton.

Reading - Ealing Broadway - Turnham Green - Richmond - London Waterloo would be perfectly valid, for example.

It isn't currently valid for travel from Reading via Earley as far as Virginia Water. Disruption doesn't change that.

Are there toilets on most/all trains from Reading to Waterloo? Didn't spot any.

455s are used on some Reading to Waterloo trains which don't have toilets.

The TfL was confused. Unsurprisingly, it has Reading to Unknown, Waterloo to Unknown, which is expected, but Unknown to Bank was unexpected. Is it because I didn't use the scanner?

If the various readers are used properly and within the allowed journey time, Reading to Bank via Staines and Waterloo should cost no more than Reading to Bank via Slough and Paddington. Did you 'time out'?

What were your touches? I think you have described them as:
Reading in
London Waterloo NR out
London Waterloo NR in
Bank out

If so, the two touches at London Waterloo NR should "break" the journey into two elements, but it should still charge meaningful fares for two journeys even if they aren't defined in the fare finder.

 

[Hadders]

Contactless is not valid to travel between Reading and Waterloo, although both stations are in the contactless zone part of the route between them is outside it.

How long was it between touching in at Reading and touching out at Waterloo? You're allowed 2h30mins so if it was longer than this that would explain why you've got two incomplete journeys:

Reading to Unknown
Unknown to Waterloo

Then, when you travelled from Waterloo to Bank without touching in at Waterloo so you've got:

Unknown to Bank

 

[dasfvzcx]

Contactless is not valid to travel between Reading and Waterloo, although both stations are in the contactless zone part of the route between them is outside it.

How long was it between touching in at Reading and touching out at Waterloo? You're allowed 2h30mins so if it was longer than this that would explain why you've got two incomplete journeys:

Reading to Unknown
Unknown to Waterloo

Then, when you travelled from Waterloo to Bank without touching in at Waterloo so you've got:

Unknown to Bank

Hi yes,

It was more than 2hr30min, so that part already made sense. The "Unknown to Bank" seems weird since the taps as outlined by JonathanH are what happened.

I thought you would say that in regards contactless validity. So what should I have done, if I wanted to be legal, buy a train ticket as well and get a refund from TFL for the unused/single tap contactless (or if there was time, tap out, get ticket, go back in?).

It makes sense, but it seems an unrealistic expectation to have of the average traveller, and I would hope sanity would prevail if a ticket inspection took place (the Waterloo train was actually not too busy).

 

[Hadders]

I've just re-read your opening post and see that after going to the toilet at Waterloo you touched in at the main barrier line and then travelled to bank, so the jurney to Bank shouldn't have been an uncompleted one.

To answer the wider question, I would expect common sense to prevail in the event of disruption, especially if passengers from Reading to London are being advised to travel with SWR to Waterloo. It might be worth contacting TfL explaining what happened and ask if they will amend the charge to Reading to Bank, as this is the journey you actually made.

 

[JonathanH]

I think the other wider question here is the one about touching in at the original station in periods of disruption.

A touch in at Reading, and out at Waterloo should register a mixed-mode Reading to Zone 1 fare, even though it is not advertised. However, given the maximum journey time is 150 minutes and the actual journey time is getting on for 90 minutes, is it the best course of action to set off on the Waterloo journey knowing that it will time out?

While the best thing to do is not touch in before knowing that a train will run, that isn't the situation here. Should a passenger touch out at the origin and back in, knowing that this will result in two incomplete journeys, but ones which are easily refunded, then have a properly recorded journey thereafter, or just travel knowing they will time out at the destination, and potentially end up with a journey history that is harder to resolve?

 

[swt_passenger]

If the various readers are used properly and within the allowed journey time, Reading to Bank via Staines and Waterloo should cost no more than Reading to Bank via Slough and Paddington. Did you 'time out'?

What were your touches? I think you have described them as:
Reading in
London Waterloo NR out
London Waterloo NR in
Bank out

If so, the two touches at London Waterloo NR should "break" the journey into two elements, but it should still charge meaningful fares for two journeys even if they aren't defined in the fare finder.

Surely the ‘London Waterloo NR in‘ wouldn’t count as an entry to the W&C line for Bank? Will Waterloo to Bank not using the W&C entry be defined?

I think the OP needed to touch a stand alone reader on the way into Waterloo (W&C) to be correctly charged?

 

[JonathanH]

Will Waterloo to Bank not using the W&C entry be defined?

The general understanding of the underlying principle of the London implementation of PAYG is that a fare is defined between any two points, even if a journey is illogical or not shown in the fare finder.

It is feasible to travel from Waterloo NR to Bank without using the Waterloo & City Line, and without an intermediate touch within 90 minutes (via Clapham Junction, West Brompton and Monument among other routes).

 

[redreni]

I think what I'd have done in that situation is exited through the barriers at Reading and bought a ticket, if I wanted to try the Waterloo route.

Any PAYG charge for the tap in and straight back out at Reading could have been recovered from TfL, though it's been my experience when I've done this in the past (e.g. tapped in on Contactless forgetting I had a paper ticket), that a tap in and straight back out again is generally resolved automatically and charged at £0.00 (though I think there's a limit to how many times that will happen).