Disputes of dubious merit

[Starmill]

Although if someone refuses, runs away and hasn't used an e-ticket enforcing this becomes an issue.

Hence the problem with people who push through gatelines.

If that's the case the person may be arrested by a police officer or detained under the Byelaw if there are no officers around. It's not particularly difficult to arrange for these to happen, it's just general sloppiness that people are repeatedly allowed to get away with jumping over ticket gates, running away from authorised collectors and so on.

 

[Deepgreen]

It would be ridiculous for an appeal to fail on a train that ran fast if the driver didn't say anything until it was too late to alight and get another service.

Quite - it's a nonsense because there were train crew adjacent who could verify it - it's not as if the verification process would have been complex and difficult.

 

[Essan]

Presumably, if you have been carried on beyond your station, and need to double back, you are entitled to delay repay?

 

[jon0844]

Presumably, if you have been carried on beyond your station, and need to double back, you are entitled to delay repay?

Indeed.

 

[riceuten]

Quite - it's a nonsense because there were train crew adjacent who could verify it - it's not as if the verification process would have been complex and difficult.

There were - and I invited them to speak to the driver who was still in his cab. He refused.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2024 ==

Indeed.

This whole ‘pay the fine and we’ll investigate and refund you if you’re innocent’ seems a complete abuse of process and reversal of natural justice.

 

[jon0844]

Couldn't you have spoken to the driver then?

This story seems like a made up theoretical scenario and sounds very far fetched.

 

[riceuten]

Couldn't you have spoken to the driver then?

This story seems like a made up theoretical scenario and sounds very far fetched.

I can assure you it is all true. So you are suggesting that I left the already irate and determined to fine me RPO and walk back to the platform where the train was to cajole the driver to back up my story?

 

[jon0844]

I can assure you it is all true. So you are suggesting that I left the already irate and determined to fine me RPO and walk back to the platform where the train was to cajole the driver to back up my story?

Walk back to the platform? How did you know the driver was still in the cab?

 

[sansyy]

Couldn't you have spoken to the driver then?

This story seems like a made up theoretical scenario and sounds very far fetched.

Happens very frequently. On Merseyrail when a delay is more than 6 minutes they'll run fast from Hooton to Birkenhead Central cutting out most the Wirral either making you alight at Hooton and catch the next train or ride to Birkenhead Central and catch the next train down. Both are allowed and advised since delays need to be resolved. No RPOs will ever fine you here for that as its common and makes total sense.

 

[RJ]

"That's alright", I thought, "I will explain to the RCO that we non-stopped FPK and he will let us off".

"No", came the response, "you overtravelled your ticket, and that's all there is to it". I asked to speak to the supervisor, and he stated - unbelievably - that I should "pay the fine, appeal it, and we will investigate it and refund you if what you say is true". To the contrary, I suggested they speak to one of the TOC staff (or the driver, who was still in his cab) to verify my statement and the other passengers in a similar boat.

"No, you must pay the fine" said the team leader.

Now, I am ashamed to say at this point I stalked off down the platform towards platforms 9-11 and was relieved that, despite shouting at me and threatening to call BTP, they did not follow me. I got a train a couple of minutes later back to FPK.

In such a situation, what would YOU have done? I can kind of understand the RCOs have "heard it all before", but in a situation like this, obviously could not be bothered to verify an entirely credible story.

It’s a hazard of travelling on the railways. It’s very pro “pay the penalty regardless, then appeal”, even if the fault is entirely on the railway’s side. Staff will do that because

a) They are paid to issue those penalties and
b) There is literally zero comeback for issuing them when they shouldn’t

So why wouldn’t they?

I’d never actually do the pay then appeal thing myself as experience shows the appeals process doesn’t really work. With something like this you would be relying on the TOC finding someone with the technical knowledge to find out what happened with that train, then you might find they try to say there was an announcement before the previous stop etc and there’s no guarantee you’ll be successful.

Don’t pay any money you’re not obligated to.

 

[Horizon22]

There's a couple of things here:

a) the decision made on board the service
b) the subsequent behaviour of the RPOs.

Regarding a) it is always best practice to give people the clear opportunity to get off before running a service non-stop. If you are running from A-B-C-D-E-F and want to run non-stop C-F, you certainly don't tell people AFTER you've departed C and ideally the driver/guard is informed (via GSMR or station staff) before leaving B. The additional call at Welwyn North seems to have been a mitigation to run fast but if those on-board didn't know why that was happening, it completely defeats the point.

Regarding b) there are two potential approaches. If there had been disruption on multiple services (including the one the OP listed) then I've often found revenue activities (excluding normal gateline checks) are normally suspended because people may be all sorts of displaced and additional customer service is required (this may be an activation of CSL2, but may not require it). If it was a one-off service, you'd certainly expect the RPOs to be made aware of the specific train and any issues. Of course they would have expected anyone for intermediate stations to have disembarked at Welwyn North - as they'd expect the announcement to have been made and the last available station as I mentioned above - so might have been somewhat surprised to see someone for Finbury Park and challenged that. Whether they accept the version of events comes down to a judgment of character (of both the passenger and the staff member!) but if they'd known the service was amended - and as rail staff should know how things can be disrupted - should have accepted the plausible sequence of events the OP laid out.

If the OP's sequence of events is true, that was a particularly officious RPO team and I'd have a written a complaint to Great Northern.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The driver only announced we'd be non-stopping AFTER we left Welwyn North.

Is it possible that the driver did make an announcement prior to the call at Welwyn Garden City? (Quite likely that they didn't, but, nevertheless, is it possible that they did?)

 

[riceuten]

Walk back to the platform? How did you know the driver was still in the cab?

Because I could see him?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2024 ==

Is it possible that the driver did make an announcement prior to the call at Welwyn Garden City? (Quite likely that they didn't, but, nevertheless, is it possible that they did?)

No, he did not. There were at least five other people caught out like myself

 

[jon0844]

There were at least five other people caught out like myself

What happened to them? The same I assume, in which case with six people (at least) and at least you seeing the driver still sitting in the cab, nobody was able to confirm the details with staff?

 

[John R]

Given the number of people who use headphones, it wouldnt be surprising if a number of people missed it and were overcarried even if an announcement was made.

 

[jon0844]

Given the number of people who use headphones, it wouldnt be surprising if a number of people missed it and were overcarried even if an announcement was made.

Yes, I'm sure that happens a lot.

 

[riceuten]

What happened to them? The same I assume, in which case with six people (at least) and at least you seeing the driver still sitting in the cab, nobody was able to confirm the details with staff?

I have no idea, I walked off, which was the sensible thing to do in the circumstances.