Disputed route validity?

[metropolitan]

Hello,

This is my first post here at RailUK, and I'd have liked to be able to post something more positive, but as circumstances have conspired against me, I have a rather confusing problem that I'm hoping someone with superior railway fares knowledge to my own can help me solve!

Today, I needed to travel from Nottingham to Retford. Having made this journey once before (around two weeks ago), I had been sold a ticket allowing me to take the fastest route via Grantham for £5.90. This was purchased from the ticket office at Nottingham and accepted by both the East Midlands Trains conductor between Nottingham and Grantham and the Hull Trains conductor from Grantham to Retford. This ticket was marked 'Any Permitted Route'.

Anyway, back to today (10/04/09), I went to the ticket office in Nottingham, and asked for the same ticket via Grantham with my railcard (as previously) and was refused on the grounds that 'the route isn't valid' and that to make the journey, I'd have to buy two seperate singles coming to a total of around £13. The lady in the ticket office was insistent that the three people who had issued and checked my ticket on the previous occasion had been wrong to accept it.

Not being convinced by her argument, but with an appointment in Retford, I decided to purchase the tickets she was offering. Not being entirely happy I decided to ask the conductor on the first train whether the ticket office was correct that the route was invalid for the £5.90 ticket. Luckily, I had a very friendly conductor on the EMT service to Grantham, who looked up the fare in his machine and told me I was entitled to the £5.90 ticket, but he couldn't issue a re-fund and advised me to speak to the staff at my destination. A further conversation with the conductor on NXEC produced the same result.

Having now had confirmation from two staff that the ticket office at Nottingham were incorrect, I went and spoke to the nice woman in the ticket office at Retford, who said that she was unable to refund the tickets as it was Nottingham's error. She did, however, warn me that Nottingham had done something similar on previous occasions and that they 'disputed the validily of the £5.90 fare via Grantham' as the NXEC fare is over £9 between there and Retford for a Y-P single.

So my question is this - where do I go from here? Do I take my ticket back to Nottingham and try my luck? Or do I risk sending the tickets off to East Midlands Trains customer service (at the risk that they side with their staff and I lose my evidence of having been over-charged)?

I hope someone here is able to help me out!

Thakyou,

'metropolitan'

 

[yorkie]

Anyway, back to today (10/04/09), I went to the ticket office in Nottingham, and asked for the same ticket via Grantham with my railcard (as previously) and was refused on the grounds that 'the route isn't valid' and that to make the journey, I'd have to buy two seperate singles coming to a total of around £13. The lady in the ticket office was insistent that the three people who had issued and checked my ticket on the previous occasion had been wrong to accept it.

Big mistake I'm afraid. Just ask for an any permitted. Sometimes ticket office staff love to do the job of a guard/RPI. Sadly though the ones that attempt to do this are, in my experience (and the experience of many others) extremely poor at it. They do not, in most cases, know what the Routeing Guide is, let alone how to use it. They apply their own logic at all times, which is fundamentally flawed.

Not being convinced by her argument, but with an appointment in Retford, I decided to purchase the tickets she was offering. Not being entirely happy I decided to ask the conductor on the first train whether the ticket office was correct that the route was invalid for the £5.90 ticket. Luckily, I had a very friendly conductor on the EMT service to Grantham, who looked up the fare in his machine and told me I was entitled to the £5.90 ticket, but he couldn't issue a re-fund and advised me to speak to the staff at my destination. A further conversation with the conductor on NXEC produced the same result.

Generally, (yes there are exceptions) conductors know what they are doing. In some TOCs (particularly EMT) ticket office staff do not know what they are doing when it comes to anything but basic stuff. (NXEC are quite good though in my experience).

Having now had confirmation from two staff that the ticket office at Nottingham were incorrect, I went and spoke to the nice woman in the ticket office at Retford, who said that she was unable to refund the tickets as it was Nottingham's error. She did, however, warn me that Nottingham had done something similar on previous occasions and that they 'disputed the validily of the £5.90 fare via Grantham' as the NXEC fare is over £9 between there and Retford for a Y-P single.

EMT are notorious for it, so that does not surprise me at all

So my question is this - where do I go from here? Do I take my ticket back to Nottingham and try my luck?

If you have the time and inclination, yes.

Or do I risk sending the tickets off to East Midlands Trains customer service (at the risk that they side with their staff and I lose my evidence of having been over-charged)?

That may be a better idea. Take photocopies of the tickets!

EMT are - as usual - wrong. The Routeing Guide clearly states that it is a valid route on maps ER + DG.

Do not expect anything other than shoddy customer service at Nottingham ticket office.

I've just got off the phone from someone who had a poor experience of Huddersfield ticket office making up rules and refusing to issue the required ticket. They got the ticket from the guard on TPE with no problems whatsoever. I can see ticket offices being abolished one day if the people who work them continue to be unhelpful and obstructive to their so-called customers. They wouldn't last 5 minutes working at a restaurant or hotel, so why should we put up with them on the railways? If we are customers we should be treated as such.

 

[metropolitan]

Thankyou for the reply 'yorkie'. I was intending to write to EMT regarding the obvious error, and hopefully get a result from them. My only concern being that if their ticket office staff don't know the correct route, will their customer service department? I think your advice to photocopy the tickets is sound - I should really have thought of that myself, but the bank holiday seems to have fuddled my brain!

As an aside, I'm also planning to write to NXEC to praise both the guard onboard their service from Grantham to Retford, and the ticket office staff at Retford as both were extremely helpful, something that seems all to rare these days. I just hope that my comments there are passed on.

 

[John @ home]

where do I go from here?

Route validity is defined by the National Routeing Guide (NRG) http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide.asp

Nottingham is a member of Nottingham Group, which is a "Routeing Point". Retford is also a Routeing Point.

NRG shows that the valid routes between these two points are on maps DG+ER, EM and MM+SH.

Map DG then map ER allows Nottingham - Grantham - Newark - Retford, and also Nottingham - Fiskerton - Newark - Retford.

Map EM allows Nottingham - Mansfield - Worksop - Retford.

Map MM then map SH allows Nottingham - Chesterfield - Sheffield - Worksop - Retford

Curiously, I cannot find a route valid via Lincoln, despite the two route descriptions for which tickets are sold between Nottingham and Retford being "Lincoln" and "Any Permitted".

But yes, you should have been sold the "Any Permitted" ticket and EMT are in breach of the Impartial Retailing conditions of their Franchise for refusing to do so.

My advice is that you write to complain to Tim Shoveller, MD of EMT, and enclose a photocopy of the tickets you were sold. Demand a refund of the amount you have been charged incorrectly and ask what he intends to do to ensure that his staff have the appropriate training to issue tickets correctly.

John

 

[Ferret]

Generally, (yes there are exceptions) conductors know what they are doing.

Yorkie, I wish I could agree! Far too many guards have no idea when it comes to off-peak restrictions and permitted routes or even basic geography. See ticket, check date, stamp it and move on.

Ferret

 

[metropolitan]

Curiously, I cannot find a route valid via Lincoln, despite the two route descriptions for which tickets are sold between Nottingham and Retford being "Lincoln" and "Any Permitted".

John,

I've been permitted to travel to Nottingham via Lincoln from Retford on two occasions, both priced at £5.60 (so cheaper than the Any Permitted Route tickets), and this route was also accepted by the guard on both trains. While the route is often the slowest way to go, on one occasion with a 'fast' train between Nottingham and Lincoln (stopping only at Lowdham and Newark Castle), and a 10 minute change onto a Northern service towards Sheffield (then Adwick), it was considerably quicker than the alternative route via Mansfield and Worksop or via Grantham. This is only possible on one or two trains from Nottingham, and never works in the reverse, taking well over two hours (I attempted it once to avoid going via Worksop and the Robin Hood Line at night, due to the nature of the areas it serves).