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What plonker makes the same mistake twice in one day?! Gets "done" on the outward journey. Potentially could have gotten FCC to accept his story.
On the return, gets busted again!!
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Dispute with Southern over discounted ticket without Railcard
- Thread starter NathanPrior
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What plonker makes the same mistake twice in one day?! Gets "done" on the outward journey. Potentially could have gotten FCC to accept his story.
On the return, gets busted again!!
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R
RailUK Forums
If this is now with Southern's prosecution department I believe the time for discretion is way past (that time would have been on the gateline) at least in terms of being let off without extra charge. I think the only discretion you are now likely to see is in not taking the case to court (where it seems that they will be successful) and instead accepting an out of court settlement.
Of course, but that doesn't change the fact that you failed to produce a valid fare when requested and then did not pay the penalty for doing so.
It is needed (and I've always been asked for my railcard by the by) but that doesn't change the fact that you failed to produce a valid fare when required. That was your mistake not the the railways and under the rules you are liable for it.
Believe what?
You refused to pay the fare, so yes they can take you to court.
Well, a Penalty Fare is applicable for you both, but if you refuse to pay it then prosecution is likely. The PF does not have to be paid on the spot, it can be paid later, but the excess would have to be paid there and then. Was she issued with a PF in the end? If you swore at the member of staff that is not going to help.
Of course they can. Northern prosecuted people over 10p.
You were not accused of not having a ticket. You were charged the correct fare for not holding a valid ticket, which is a Penalty Fare. This is the charge made in PF areas for honest mistakes. If you showed any intent then it could go straight to prosecution. Refusal or failure to pay can also result in prosecution.
In all the years I've been shopping, I have never been stopped at the exit and had my receipt checked against purchases. If it happened to me tomorrow and I had items in the bag that had not been paid for do you think the same would apply? Hmm I'm sorry officer, I have shopped here for 10 years and no one has ever checked me leaving, so I don't think you should've today either.
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The correct fare for that mistake is £20 (for this particular journey; it would be different up in Yorkshire). However you refused to pay it! Therefore they can prosecute you.
NathanPrior
Member
I refused to pay it after him asking for cash instead of letting us pay by card
If you had the Railcard and showed it you would not have been asked to pay a PF! However you did not hold it at the time of travel, therefore the PF is correct.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hmm. That was not made clear. Is this a card that is accepted in ticket machines? ie, not an electron or similar card?
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Detailed checks cannot always occur. However if you let us know in advance when you are travelling I am sure we can arrange for it
Accepted that It's The Rules and hence Should Be Obeyed, but there isn't actually any reason (from a moral point of view, not in terms of what the bylaws say) to penalty fare people who can prove they have railcards but who have forgotten them on a particular occasion. Obviously, if someone *can't* show that they had one at the time in question, they should rightly end up in court for deliberate fraud.
In the OP's specific case, I don't understand what on earth the RPI was playing at refusing his card before even seeing it (in a situation where a PF is issued, you have the right to pay by cash or by a valid Visa/Mastercard, surely?). On the other hand, it doesn't sound like his attitude did him any favours, and waiting until the deadline was almost up before posting the evidence of railcard is very, very silly. If you've not posted it yet, I concur with the chap upthread who suggested sending it guaranteed next-day delivery.
I grudgingly paid a PF years ago, in an even more unreasonable context. I'd had my wallet stolen a month or so before, and when LU replaced my Oyster card and annual season, they didn't re-issue the Gold Card Record Card. So I'd been travelling on it for about a month, buying Gold Card discounted tickets on the basis that I'd paid my thousand quid and was carrying a valid annual season ticket with me at all times. At Guildford, they'd locked out the barrier (presumably doing a blitz on discount ticket types) and the chief RPI insisted on charging me the penalty fare.
Because a dishonesty conviction would utterly screw me in my line of work, I ended up paying the twenty quid rather than fighting it - I'd have loved to take that one to court and get a decent lawyer onto it. "Yes, your honour, we are seriously suggesting that someone who was travelling with an annual season ticket, in the form that it was issued to him, should be prosecuted for fraud for claiming the discount that his ticket entitles him to, because a ticket clerk in London followed the wrong replacement procedure".
In the OP's specific case, I don't understand what on earth the RPI was playing at refusing his card before even seeing it (in a situation where a PF is issued, you have the right to pay by cash or by a valid Visa/Mastercard, surely?). On the other hand, it doesn't sound like his attitude did him any favours, and waiting until the deadline was almost up before posting the evidence of railcard is very, very silly. If you've not posted it yet, I concur with the chap upthread who suggested sending it guaranteed next-day delivery.
I grudgingly paid a PF years ago, in an even more unreasonable context. I'd had my wallet stolen a month or so before, and when LU replaced my Oyster card and annual season, they didn't re-issue the Gold Card Record Card. So I'd been travelling on it for about a month, buying Gold Card discounted tickets on the basis that I'd paid my thousand quid and was carrying a valid annual season ticket with me at all times. At Guildford, they'd locked out the barrier (presumably doing a blitz on discount ticket types) and the chief RPI insisted on charging me the penalty fare.
Because a dishonesty conviction would utterly screw me in my line of work, I ended up paying the twenty quid rather than fighting it - I'd have loved to take that one to court and get a decent lawyer onto it. "Yes, your honour, we are seriously suggesting that someone who was travelling with an annual season ticket, in the form that it was issued to him, should be prosecuted for fraud for claiming the discount that his ticket entitles him to, because a ticket clerk in London followed the wrong replacement procedure".
RJ
Established Member
The courts will be more concerned about whether or not the strict liability of holding a valid ticket was complied with or not. In your case, Gold Card discounted tickets are only validated by a paper gold card being presented.
It took a couple of weeks for me to have my Priv reissued to me. In the meantime, I chased it up and had to make do with not using the discount. You should have done the same.
So what? I'm a student in full time education. I always ensure that I pay my fare. If you don't have a valid ticket, then you haven't paid your fare so why get uppity about it?
Now, it's not about trying to get off. You failed to produce a valid ticket and wilfully avoided paying the fare when the opportunity was offered. So it's now about damage limitation.
You basically need to write a grovelling letter to Southern because they have you by the proverbial scrotum right now. I hope you realised this when you sent off your appeal otherwise you're likely to end up in front of a magistrate with a good chance of landing a fine much higher than £20 in addition to compensation, Southern's costs and an obligatory victim surcharge. Oh and perhaps a criminal record.
It took a couple of weeks for me to have my Priv reissued to me. In the meantime, I chased it up and had to make do with not using the discount. You should have done the same.
So what? I'm a student in full time education. I always ensure that I pay my fare. If you don't have a valid ticket, then you haven't paid your fare so why get uppity about it?
Now, it's not about trying to get off. You failed to produce a valid ticket and wilfully avoided paying the fare when the opportunity was offered. So it's now about damage limitation.
You basically need to write a grovelling letter to Southern because they have you by the proverbial scrotum right now. I hope you realised this when you sent off your appeal otherwise you're likely to end up in front of a magistrate with a good chance of landing a fine much higher than £20 in addition to compensation, Southern's costs and an obligatory victim surcharge. Oh and perhaps a criminal record.
The penalty fare is £20 last I checked, and you did need to pay it because you didn't have a valid ticket.
RJ
Established Member
Nobody's saying it wasn't the railway's fault. No one has said that you were in the wrong.
All I'm saying is that you need to travel with a valid ticket at all times. If you cover yourself, you won't be penalised and you could always claim it back afterwards. When on the railways, you must follow the rules and not your own ideals.
There is a general propensity for the toys to come out of the pram when people with experience of the system provide advice, rather than tell people what they want to hear, but that's par for the course.
When I buy Priv tickets, I'm also a customer? Over the last few years, I've bought Zone 1-2, 2-3 or 1-6 Travelcards, either weekly, monthly or annual at the public rate so not sure what me being staff has to do with anything?
But travelcards stop being valid at 04:29 (unless you are already on a train and were exiting). Do you mean 16:45?
If you had an oyster card, the thing to do would be to touch out with it and get a maximum fare.
I also don't understand why you are (apparently) being prosecuted for £2.70 instead of £20.00 or £8.50 or £15.80. As others have said, different behaviour with the RPI could well have resulted in a different outcome.
To clarify, did you have a z1-6 day travelcard at £5.80 (iirc) and should have had an adult z1-6 at £8.50?
Could I request a mod to delete the name of the RPI from this thread - not fair to the member of staff to have a one-sided account of his actions.
Maybe Anthony Worrall Thompson needs to read this thread?
(Content edited - misunderstood!)
The rules are abundantly simple. You carry your railcard and show it to staff who ask for it, if you're travelling on a discounted ticket.
Your argument has been countered thousands of times already on this forum and it always ends up in a circular discussion. Do a search - it comes up almost every week. We are trying to provide practical advice to the OP (even if, in my view, he doesn't really deserve it after naming a specific member of staff and calling them an a***hole).
Unless you have specific experience of the legal issues then I am afraid your protestations about "the system" are unproductive.
The simple fact remains that the OP was in the wrong whether you or I like it or not. He travelled on an invalid ticket and was correctly asked to pay the appropriate fare. He refused which was rather silly, and yes, he may be prosecuted for it. There are countless prosecutions of a similar nature which are successful every year.
Fact.
(Sorry if you don't like the facts, and I don't disagree with all you said, but we must stick to the facts and the law as it stands today.)
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I think, AlterEgo, you may have conflated NathanPrior's issue (Y-P ticket without Y-P Railcard) with johnb's separate issue (gold record card not issued with annual season ticket on Oyster).
Is it just me, or is this part a tiny bit suspicious?
As a passenger I'm with the general consensus here; it was the OP's mistake so he should have taken the consequences. I have a railcard and I know if I forget to take it with my I have to pay the full fare (it's happened).
Back to the original topic, unfortunately the Oyster card couldn't have helped you at all. You might well have a card with the legend "NR Railcard" stored on it. Trouble is, that is also invalid without the supporting railcard. And as the Oyster doesn't have your name on it there is no way that the RPI could check it was yours.
The one thing that does concern me is why a debit card was refused, apparently without knowing what sort of card it was. I'm sure PFs can be paid by card as long as the card is valid for offline transactions.
The one thing that does concern me is why a debit card was refused, apparently without knowing what sort of card it was. I'm sure PFs can be paid by card as long as the card is valid for offline transactions.
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
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I isn't. It is a 'normal' Penalty Fares station.
As discussed in other threads CTAs are not common at all on the rail network, and the existence of barriers does not mean it is a CTA.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
[This whole thread sparked off last night and seems to have just about exhausted every avenue for further discussion already! MikeWh's question would be interesting to have answered, but that too may be related to the 'attitude' encountered.]
Two observations I will make are:
we could not do much to assist without knowing what is in the oral Statement that the passenger gave to the Inspector, it very possibly included an Admission of one of the Offences mentioned here;
the OP has already returned a Written Statement, perhaps focussing on the alledged faults of the Inspector and not on their own faults and responsibilities, in all probability, that Written Statement also includes an incriminating Admission.
In fact, the thread title is a little misleading, because I see no trace of there actually being a 'dispute' at all. Two people travelled without their Railcards and (presumably) admitted it to the Company, but instead of paying promptly as required, they come on here to blame the Company's staff - I doubt the Company will take the bait of any 'dispute'. They will simply continue to collect the fare due, including any penalty fare, and their increasing costs - using a Magistrates' Court if necessary.
We have been able to provide very effective assistance to others who've been detected without a valid ticket or other documents, though I'm not persuaded that this is one I will be assisting, for the same reasons that others have given. Particularly as it is now so late in the time offered for the passenger to provide a Written Statement.
Two observations I will make are:
we could not do much to assist without knowing what is in the oral Statement that the passenger gave to the Inspector, it very possibly included an Admission of one of the Offences mentioned here;
the OP has already returned a Written Statement, perhaps focussing on the alledged faults of the Inspector and not on their own faults and responsibilities, in all probability, that Written Statement also includes an incriminating Admission.
In fact, the thread title is a little misleading, because I see no trace of there actually being a 'dispute' at all. Two people travelled without their Railcards and (presumably) admitted it to the Company, but instead of paying promptly as required, they come on here to blame the Company's staff - I doubt the Company will take the bait of any 'dispute'. They will simply continue to collect the fare due, including any penalty fare, and their increasing costs - using a Magistrates' Court if necessary.
Not all RPIs carry an Avantix machine, but surely the customers could have been escorted to a booking office to take payment? I can see why he wouldn't necessarily let them use an ATM (cue Daily Fail headlines "UNEMPLOYED PASSENGER MARCHED TO ATM OVER £2.70 FARE") but unless it was a Visa Electron card, it should have been accepted.
That's quite right, but:
Is it not possible however that the RPI simply decided not to issue a PF and go for a TIR/MG11 given the OP's attitude...?
NathanPrior
Member
Exiting
But it seems odd I went from New Eltham to Charing Cross then to Regents park then back through Charing Cross absolutley fine but then got to London Bridge and BOOM!
WelshBluebird
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The OP is in the wrong, however I do think there should be a more lenient approach to forgetting a railcard. Even if it is charging you the new fare and then letting you claim it back later. And it does worry me that the OP was not allowed to pay the penalty fare with a debit card. Out of curiosity, if you did offer to pay any fare with a valid debit card that should be accepted, what can you do if the staff member refuses to take it?
Any evidence to support that assumption?
Any evidence to support that assumption?
To be fair, he qualified his comment with a "probably".
WelshBluebird
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But that is still assuming the it was the OP's fault that the member of staff did not accept the card.
Now, of course, the initial issue was the OP's fault (as the railcard was not shown, and so the ticket was not valid), however if the person has to then pay a penalty fare, and they offer to do it with a valid method of payment, then why on earth should we say it is right that the ToC can refuse?
As I edited into the post above, what would happen if you want to pay any fare with a card, but for whatever reason the member of staff refuses? Surely you can't be then done for not having a ticket, as it was not your fault you could not pay.
It appears he was prepared to accept cash.
Well, not all stations will choose to set the barriers to reject discounted tickets, because not all stations will have the manpower to do so.
Lets not forget that not only did the OP forget his YP card to accompany his ticket he also bought a YP discounted ticket for his girlfriend, a ticket she was not entitled to.
Now that may have been a(nother) genuine mistake but added to the "forgotten" railcard I would think that the gateline staff would look on it as a deliberate attempt at fraud and deal with it accordingly.
As for the gateline staff being unproffessional, I would take it that you were ranting and raving like a nutter because your original post does not read that YOU were very polite at the time.
You are unemployed but have been rushed off your feet and not had time to sort the letter out? Yeah of course, more than likely chose to ignore it but realised you will be up to your neck in it if you didnt get the letter in.
People who work a 40 hour week (with another 10 hours spent commuting) manage to sort these things out so why are you so different?
I would guess that it is unlikely that Southern will NOT prosecute in your case, the evidence against you is quite damning (especially your GF having a discounted ticket, bought by you, to which she is not entitled as well).
Good luck with this, but you had better be ready for a big fine and a criminal record.
Now that may have been a(nother) genuine mistake but added to the "forgotten" railcard I would think that the gateline staff would look on it as a deliberate attempt at fraud and deal with it accordingly.
As for the gateline staff being unproffessional, I would take it that you were ranting and raving like a nutter because your original post does not read that YOU were very polite at the time.
You are unemployed but have been rushed off your feet and not had time to sort the letter out? Yeah of course, more than likely chose to ignore it but realised you will be up to your neck in it if you didnt get the letter in.
People who work a 40 hour week (with another 10 hours spent commuting) manage to sort these things out so why are you so different?
I would guess that it is unlikely that Southern will NOT prosecute in your case, the evidence against you is quite damning (especially your GF having a discounted ticket, bought by you, to which she is not entitled as well).
Good luck with this, but you had better be ready for a big fine and a criminal record.
back to the original story.
the official line on this is that without your railcard your ticket is not valid. How can you prove somebody else is not using your railcard at the same time?
Abiding by the terms of carriage is important. The valid ticket doesn't only validate your travel but validates your reason for being on railway property. Without a valid ticket your not insured to be there. So if anything was to happen to you then your held responsible. No compo claim for you!!!!!
Moral of the story is..........
This is your mistake, BUY A TICKET, and pay my wages. LOL
the official line on this is that without your railcard your ticket is not valid. How can you prove somebody else is not using your railcard at the same time?
Abiding by the terms of carriage is important. The valid ticket doesn't only validate your travel but validates your reason for being on railway property. Without a valid ticket your not insured to be there. So if anything was to happen to you then your held responsible. No compo claim for you!!!!!
Moral of the story is..........
This is your mistake, BUY A TICKET, and pay my wages. LOL
ert47
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NathanPrior:95481 said:
Just out of interest, which gates were you trying to exit from? The high level through platforms leading to the underground, the gates from the high level leading to bus station or the gates leading to the terminus concourse?
EDIT: Just thought, if you were travelling from Charing Cross, why were you using the Southern gatelines (terminus)?
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