Dispute with a FGW RPO

[Rich McLean]

Yesterday, I caught the 15:45 FCC Cambridge to Kings X service, that went without a hitch. I was travelling on an Off-Peak Return portion back to Oxford.

Upon getting onto the Gate line on the bridge from the H&C LU Lines, my ticket didn't work. I then showed my ticket to the RPO who was adamant it was not valid. I was attemping to board the 17:22 to Hereford as far as oxford. Luckily I requested a seat reservation for that very train which I did show her and she said I would have to show the seat reservation to the TM. After that, I got on the train, and the TM and the Gateline at Oxford had no issues

My point is, hadn't I had a seat reservation, she wasn't going to let me board the train at all, and I would have had to wait for a later service at the end of the evening peak.

My point is, was the RPO right, or was I right?

 

[bb21]

So your ticket is Oxford - ??? Off-Peak Return. Cambridge I assume?

 

[Rich McLean]

So your ticket is Oxford - ??? Off-Peak Return. Cambridge I assume?

Yes it was. Traveled into London the day before (1801 OXF - PAD) then LU to KingsX then FCC to Cambridge. RPI on the train that end had no issues

It was an Off-Peak Oxford - Cambridge Period Return with HM Railcard

 

[bb21]

There shouldn't be any afternoon restriction AFAIK, so the RPI was incorrect.

Restriction texts here.

 

[Rich McLean]

There shouldn't be any afternoon restriction AFAIK, so the RPI was incorrect.

Restriction texts here.

Thanks, if that is the case, I will email FGW with that with the copy of the restrictions, as I would hate to see someone else refused travel or even myself if without a reservation

Many Thanks

 

[bb21]

Thanks, if that is the case, I will email FGW with that with the copy of the restrictions, as I would hate to see someone else refused travel or even myself if without a reservation

Many Thanks

You're welcome. I suspect that the RPI got confused with the evening restrictions that are applicable on some Off-Peak Day tickets.

It is probably best that they are rebriefed and reminded periodically about the differences.

 

[bnm]

As well as re-briefing their staff, FGW need to remove those totally confusing and wrong announcements and info screen messages that say "Off Peak tickets are not valid on this service."

I've had staff at Paddington say to me that a perfectly valid Off Peak ticket is not valid on a fast service to Reading and beyond, with their only reasoning being, "That's what it says on the screens."

You then board and the TM makes an announcement saying the same.

There are far too many Off Peak tickets, both Day and Period, which are perfectly valid out of Paddington on any service in the evening peak. These announcements and info screen messages run the very real risk of denying passengers the use of services they are perfectly entitled to use.

When you have staff also believing that the restriction is blanket, there's also the very real risk that passengers could find themselves being issued with excess fares, the threat of ejection from a service or even the threat of prosecution. Whilst none of those would stand up to scrutiny when challenged after the fact, it is still an unnecessarily stressful situation to be in. I know. I was once threatened with ejection and a meeting with BTP after refusing to pay an excess and explaining I would vigorously challenge any UFN that was issued. That came from a TM who told me she'd been doing the job for twenty years and knew absolutely what was and wasn't valid.

I've written to FGW on more than one occasion regarding the screen messages and announcements and the lack of knowledge from the staff on the ground. Each time I was assured that the issue would be addressed. But still there are the misleading messages and announcements and it would appear from the OP's experience that staff on the ground are still prepared to deny travel to someone holding a perfectly valid ticket. It should not take a seat reservation to prove validity.

If it happens to me again in the near future I'll be taking my concerns to Passenger Focus.

 

[Rich McLean]

As well as re-briefing their staff, FGW need to remove those totally confusing and wrong announcements and info screen messages that say "Off Peak tickets are not valid on this service."

I've had staff at Paddington say to me that a perfectly valid Off Peak ticket is not valid on a fast service to Reading and beyond, with their only reasoning being, "That's what it says on the screens."

You then board and the TM makes an announcement saying the same.

There are far too many Off Peak tickets, both Day and Period, which are perfectly valid out of Paddington on any service in the evening peak. These announcements and info screen messages run the very real risk of denying passengers the use of services they are perfectly entitled to use.

When you have staff also believing that the restriction is blanket, there's also the very real risk that passengers could find themselves being issued with excess fares, the threat of ejection from a service or even the threat of prosecution. Whilst none of those would stand up to scrutiny when challenged after the fact, it is still an unnecessarily stressful situation to be in. I know. I was once threatened with ejection and a meeting with BTP after refusing to pay an excess and explaining I would vigorously challenge any UFN that was issued. That came from a TM who told me she'd been doing the job for twenty years and knew absolutely what was and wasn't valid.

I've written to FGW on more than one occasion regarding the screen messages and announcements and the lack of knowledge from the staff on the ground. Each time I was assured that the issue would be addressed. But still there are the misleading messages and announcements and it would appear from the OP's experience that staff on the ground are still prepared to deny travel to someone holding a perfectly valid ticket. It should not take a seat reservation to prove validity.

If it happens to me again in the near future I'll be taking my concerns to Passenger Focus.

Well I know a fair bit when it comes to tickets and just wanted clarification, and when buying the tickets online, it would not of given me the option to travel on that service if it was valid. If they wanted to PF or MG11 me, I would of taken all the evidence I needed when appealing the decision. I would of also refused to accept the excess fare if it did come to that, knowing full well that it was valid.

 

[bb21]

and when buying the tickets online, it would not of given me the option to travel on that service if it was valid.

Not necessarily, however if you are sold a ticket according to an itinerary then the contract has been formed on that basis therefore the itinerary should be honoured.

 

[bnm]

To add to what I said up thread.

This is not about esoteric ticket combinations, loopholes or routeing anomalies that staff can't be expected to know. It's straightforward point-to-point Off Peak tickets that are being swept up in the restrictions for tickets between London and the Thames Valley.

 

[Ferret]

To add to what I said up thread.

This is not about esoteric ticket combinations, loopholes or routeing anomalies that staff can't be expected to know. It's straightforward point-to-point Off Peak tickets that are being swept up in the restrictions for tickets between London and the Thames Valley.

You forgot to add that they can be easily checked in 5 seconds flat on an Avantix machine....

 

[Flamingo]

I'm very surprised by this thread. I didn't think there was anybody in Paddington that cared that much!

 

[bnm]

You forgot to add that they can be easily checked in 5 seconds flat on an Avantix machine....

I know that, you know that. Unfortunately gateline or Info Desk staff won't have an Avantix to hand and will instead go by what little training they've had or what the screens say, and tell you, "Off Peak tickets are not valid on this service".

No excuse on board though. If a TM is going to process an excess or UFN, it'll probably take them just a few more seconds to call up the restriction text for the ticket held. But, when they're told to make announcements on board saying, "Off Peak tickets are not valid on this service", it makes you wonder whether they've had training to differentiate between tickets from London to the Thames Valley and other tickets where only part of the journey is between Paddington and Reading and beyond.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm very surprised by this thread. I didn't think there was anybody in Paddington that cared that much!

I've even had someone in the ticket office tell me my ticket wasn't valid, when I later discovered it was. That's was after apparently checking the 'system', and was back in the days when I wasn't so clued up about restrictions.

I've no doubt though I'd have no problems on board one of the services you work Flamingo.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I've used almost this exact ticket in reverse, a little shorter on either end though. RYS-DID off peak return has also in my experience, several journeys, been quibbled occasionally at PAD. Never refused outright though, occasionally they double checked with a senior member of staff. Of course there are the semi-slow Oxfords which could have been taken as a backup, if refused at "peak" time.

Not sure if the restriction codes are identical, admittedly.

 

[bb21]

Not sure if the restriction codes are identical, admittedly.

Yes, they are, although the restrictions are different depending on which direction the ticket is so a Royston - Didcot ticket will have a different restriction code to a Didcot - Royston ticket of the same type.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Yes, they are, although the restrictions are different depending on which direction the ticket is so a Royston - Didcot ticket will have a different restriction code to a Didcot - Royston ticket of the same type.

I would think in this case the travelling out of KGX would be the more restrictive leg? FCC seem hotter on such things.

 

[Ferret]

I know that, you know that. Unfortunately gateline or Info Desk staff won't have an Avantix to hand and will instead go by what little training they've had or what the screens say, and tell you, "Off Peak tickets are not valid on this service".

The gateline staff at MYB had 3 Avantix machines to play with earlier. Although, I had to virtually sell myself the Priv ticket I wanted on it, as the operator didn't know what he was doing!!!

Anyway, lots of tickets now come with restriction codes printed on them, and we've been issued handy quick reference guides to what they mean for us. Perhaps when you moan at FGW again, you might suggest that they do something similar for the gateline staff?

 

[bb21]

I would think in this case the travelling out of KGX would be the more restrictive leg? FCC seem hotter on such things.

The restriction code for an Off-Peak Return (not Day Return) issued in the opposite direction of the aforementioned fares (ie. Cambridgeshire to Oxfordshire) is 5M.

 

[Rich McLean]

The restriction code for an Off-Peak Return (not Day Return) issued in the opposite direction of the aforementioned fares (ie. Cambridgeshire to Oxfordshire) is 5M.

In both our cases tho, its basically the same, unless travelling in the morning peak, where its valid only on certain services during the morning peak on the Outward leg

 

[RPI]

I'm very surprised by this thread. I didn't think there was anybody in Paddington that cared that much!

I know, they usually just let anyone through the gates with anything that resembles a ticket.

 

[Flamingo]

I know, they usually just let anyone through the gates with anything that resembles a ticket.

That's what I always thought!

 

[RPI]

That's what I always thought!

How often have you heard "the man at the barrier let me through................"

 

[Flamingo]

My favourite was the female on an off-peak ticket on a peak train who told me "The man on the platform said I could travel on this ticket".
'No he didn't"
'Are you calling me a liar?"
"Yes, it was me you asked, I said you'd have to pay more".

 

[Rich McLean]

UPDATE:

I had this back today, bit of a long wait

Dear Mr ******

Thank you for your email of 13 March 2013. I apologise for the delay in our response.

I was very concerned to hear that one of our colleagues in Revenue Protection at London Paddington misadvised you about your ticket when you were travelling onwards to Oxford.

I have looked into the conditions of your Off Peak Return ticket, and can confirm that this ticket would be valid on our 17:20 service from London Paddington to Oxford. As you know, there are some restrictions placed on both Off Peak Return and Off Peak Day Return tickets. However, these restrictions would not apply to this journey that you made, so I apologise for the confusion surrounding this issue.

Please let me reassure you that we take this sort of thing very seriously indeed. We expect everyone representing our company to be as helpful as possible at all times - particularly when explaining policy or ticket restrictions. We will be following this up with an investigation. We owe it to our colleagues, as well as our customers, to look carefully at things like this before we make any decisions. One of our managers is looking into the situation now, and I assure you we will take appropriate action or apply suitable training to the relevant members of staff.

You may be reassured to learn that we have been looking at how we can deliver improvements to our service and have announced additional investment to achieve this. We are investing £4 million in a new training package and this will help us to offer the excellent customer service we are determined to provide. One of our managers is looking into the situation now, and I assure you we will take appropriate action as soon as we have the full results.

Thank you again for contacting us, and for letting us know. If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to get in touch.

Yours sincerely

***** ******
Customer Services Advisor

Quite a thought out reply in fairness. I will try that journey again in the summer, and see if I get stopped

 

[bnm]

The response is as it should be. So fair play to FGW for that.

Although I note that the stock sentences about investment in customer service training are still being trotted out. How long is this training taking? I've got a CS response from three years ago that mentions the £4 million. And there are minutes out there from a Customer Panel meeting in September 2008 that mentions this new investment.

All well and good if FGW had spent the £4 million off their own back. However the investment was required as part of the Remedial Plan Notice issued by then SoS for Transport Ruth Kelly in February 2008, after they had been caught massaging cancellation figures.

 

[bb21]

Maybe the "new training package" last time didn't work and they are investing another £4 in another "new training package".

 

[jon0844]

I guess you could write back and ask for a breakdown of the £4m and see what they say!

 

[bnm]

Maybe the "new training package" last time didn't work and they are investing another £4 in another "new training package".

£4 won't go far.

 

[jon0844]

Haven't you heard of the new value range of training packages?

 

[bb21]

£4 won't go far.

Trust you. Of course I meant £4m.