Dispute over Season Ticket validity

[tom73]

I was led to believe that a London-Leeds Season was also valid to Bradford.
Got on a Northern train at Leeds around three months ago to go to Bradford.
Conductor insisted that my London-Leeds Season had no validity and gave me a PF.
PF appeal has just been refused.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn't an "Also Available At" season and Bradford is not, so far as nationalrail.co.uk goes, on a Permitted Route from London to Leeds. Therefore the PF was issued correctly. Best cough up to ensure it does not proceed to prosecution.

 

[Haywain]

Not sure where you got the idea that the season is valid at Bradford but it definitely isn't. Are you sure you're not confusing the fact that it is valid at York?

 

[AlterEgo]

How were you “led to believe” the ticket was valid from Bradford?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I was led to believe that a London-Leeds Season was also valid to Bradford.
Got on a Northern train at Leeds around three months ago to go to Bradford.
Conductor insisted that my London-Leeds Season had no validity and gave me a PF.
PF appeal has just been refused.

Is this a first stage appeal?

If so, there are still two further stages of appeal. The good news is that, no matter the stage you are at, since the matter has proceeded to an appeal at all, and the Penalty Fare has not yet been cancelled, Northern are unable to prosecute you, as per Regulation 11(3) of the Penalty Fares Regulations.

It is up to you whether you wish to raise further appeals, but if you were to do so, the validity of your ticket wouldn't be a valid ground (as a London-Leeds season ticket isn't valid to Bradford). But there may still be plenty of other grounds of appeal. This thread may be useful.

If you wish to raise further appeals, feel free to post here with any draft appeal, so that we can provide suggestions of how you might like to improve it.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Therefore the PF was issued correctly.

Not necessarily.

Best cough up to ensure it does not proceed to prosecution.

Northern are now statute barred from prosecuting, so they would be very silly to try it on.

 

[najaB]

Therefore the PF was issued correctly.

Not necessarily.

On what basis do you suggest it is not valid?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern are now statute barred from prosecuting, so they would be very silly to try it on.

AIUI they can withdraw and refund the Penalty Fare and proceed to prosecution instead, no? Indeed, Paragraph 2 seems to confirm that. It's rare, but it's possible.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

AIUI they can withdraw and refund the Penalty Fare and proceed to prosecution instead, no? Indeed, Paragraph 2 seems to confirm that. It's rare, but it's possible.

They can only withdraw the Penalty Fare and replace it by a prosecution if, in relation to a first stage appeal, they notify the appeals body of their intention to do this before the appeals body make their decision (or the 21-day period in which the appeals body are supposed to make their decision passes without a decision).

So, in other words, there is no risk of prosecution here, as a first stage appeal has already been made and responded to (rejected); I would be highly surprised if Northern were silly enough to even try it on.

The Regulations are clearly intended only to allow the cancellation of a disputed Penalty Fare in circumstances where new information comes to ligjt that justifies cancellation (e.g. fraudulent misrepresentation about the actual travel origin). The mere fact that a Penalty Fare is being disputed is not a valid justification for its cancellation.

 

[Puffing Devil]

AIUI they can withdraw and refund the Penalty Fare and proceed to prosecution instead, no? Indeed, Paragraph 2 seems to confirm that. It's rare, but it's possible.

They can only withdraw the Penalty Fare and replace it by a prosecution if, in relation to a first stage appeal, they notify the appeals body of their intention to do this before the appeals body make their decision (or the 21-day period in which the appeals body are supposed to make their decision passes without a decision).

So, in other words, there is no risk of prosecution here, as a first stage appeal has already been made and responded to (rejected); I would be highly surprised if Northern were silly enough to even try it on.

Them's the rules - once it's been ruled on as an appeal, it's only a PF (Or nothing).

The Regulations are clearly intended only to allow the cancellation of a disputed Penalty Fare in circumstances where new information comes to ligjt that justifies cancellation (e.g. fraudulent misrepresentation about the actual travel origin). The mere fact that a Penalty Fare is being disputed is not a valid justification for its cancellation.

That's the intent, though unscrupulous operators may take the opportunity to pounce.