Disproved claim Amsterdam trams ditch contactless payment

[Busaholic]

A brief paragraph in the current issue of 'Tramways & Urban Transit' magazine states that route 26 went over to chip and pin machines on its trams from July, and from 1st January these would replace contactless payment on all Amsterdam tram routes. No explanation was given as to the reason behind it, so I wonder if anyone knows. Is there a general problem with roll-out of contactless in the Netherlands, or one specific to trams and other public transport? Are too many cards being misused, or payments taken twice for the same journey, or what?

 

[radamfi]

A brief paragraph in the current issue of 'Tramways & Urban Transit' magazine states that route 26 went over to chip and pin machines on its trams from July, and from 1st January these would replace contactless payment on all Amsterdam tram routes. No explanation was given as to the reason behind it, so I wonder if anyone knows. Is there a general problem with roll-out of contactless in the Netherlands, or one specific to trams and other public transport? Are too many cards being misused, or payments taken twice for the same journey, or what?

Trams didn't accept bank cards until 7 July, when testing on route 26 started.

The website says you can use bank cards
"as well as contactless" = "ook contactloos".

https://over.gvb.nl/nieuws/pinnen-de-tram-aanloop-naar-cashloos-ov

In tram 26 kunnen het 1 uurskaartje, de dagkaart en kinderdagkaart en de 2 dagenkaart betaald worden met de pin (ook contactloos) of creditcard.

I was always under the impression that full Chip and PIN machines were being installed on buses and trams. There is no particular need for contactless to speed up boarding as they have the nationwide OV-Chipkaart anyway. They are starting to accept bank cards in order to stop accepting cash. Buses already no longer accept cash. Maybe there was a mistake in translation?

(This thread should probably be in the International Transport section, where there are a number of Netherlands based forum members who could comment).

 

[atillathehunn]

Don't know about in the north, but down here in Limburg the buses accept still OV-kaart, cash and chip+pin (incl. contactless payment). The chip+pin and contactless is a new progression.

 

[radamfi]

I think the article has confused the words "contactloos" and "contantloos". Contantloos means "cashless" and it is intended that trams will go cashless by January. So they might have seen something like "contantloos trams januari 2018" and got the wrong idea.

 

[edwin_m]

I was always under the impression that full Chip and PIN machines were being installed on buses and trams. There is no particular need for contactless to speed up boarding as they have the nationwide OV-Chipkaart anyway. They are starting to accept bank cards in order to stop accepting cash. Buses already no longer accept cash.

I'd have thought Chip & PIN is the last thing they want - faffing around with the PIN is likely to take longer than accepting cash!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd have thought Chip & PIN is the last thing they want - faffing around with the PIN is likely to take longer than accepting cash!

There are of course other benefits from not having cash, such as staff safety.

 

[radamfi]

I'd have thought Chip & PIN is the last thing they want - faffing around with the PIN is likely to take longer than accepting cash!

The main motivation for cashfree payment is to avoid drivers being robbed. Hardly anyone pays cash anyway as paying in cash is more expensive. Card payment is as expensive as cash so is not going to be used much.

 

[edwin_m]

There are of course other benefits from not having cash, such as staff safety.

The main motivation for cashfree payment is to avoid drivers being robbed. Hardly anyone pays cash anyway as paying in cash is more expensive. Card payment is as expensive as cash so is not going to be used much.

I was referring to the OP which suggested that Chip & PIN was replacing contactless payment. Surely the latter is far better for on-board payment due to the speed of the transaction? Or does "Contactless" in the quoted article refer to the Chipkaart? i last visited in 2006 when the only payment methods at NS ticket machines were Euro coins, not easily available in the UK, or some form of credit card that wasn't available in the UK either.

 

[Busaholic]

Trams didn't accept bank cards until 7 July, when testing on route 26 started.

The website says you can use bank cards
"as well as contactless" = "ook contactloos".

https://over.gvb.nl/nieuws/pinnen-de-tram-aanloop-naar-cashloos-ov



I was always under the impression that full Chip and PIN machines were being installed on buses and trams. There is no particular need for contactless to speed up boarding as they have the nationwide OV-Chipkaart anyway. They are starting to accept bank cards in order to stop accepting cash. Buses already no longer accept cash. Maybe there was a mistake in translation?

(This thread should probably be in the International Transport section, where there are a number of Netherlands based forum members who could comment).

I expect you are right and there was a mistake in translation. I must admit I thought the International Transport section related to rail, rather than 'Other Public Transport'.

Thanks to everyone for apparently clearing up the confusion.

 

[AlexNL]

I was referring to the OP which suggested that Chip & PIN was replacing contactless payment. Surely the latter is far better for on-board payment due to the speed of the transaction? Or does "Contactless" in the quoted article refer to the Chipkaart?

Retailers in the Netherlands have quickly picked up contactless payment and it is well liked by the public.

On board buses and trams you'll be able to buy single ride tickets with Chip+PIN as well as with a contactless payment card. You can continue to use the OV-chipkaart for PAYG travel.

There is a plan to enable contactless payment for PAYG travel, but this is complicated as the Dutch banking authorities do not allow offline payments on debit cards (which is what TfL uses).

 

[HowardGWR]

We have, as foreigners, anonymous OV kaart passes and you can top them up in retail outlets. Unfortunately, for rail, they have to have a balance of €20 minimum, so it's a bit of a nerve. I shall be interested if I can use my Dutch bank card next time I visit (I still have a Dutch bank account, which is very useful when travelling around the Eurozone). Reading the above, we must be careful not to generalise, as Amsterdam is not the Netherlands!

 

[AlexNL]

The push to get rid of cash on buses and trams is nationwide. As of tomorrow, all public transport in Brabant (my province) will be cashless after 19:00. As of December 1st, buses will go cashless fulltime.

OVNL, the association of public transport operators, want to get rid of cash by January 1st, 2018. This is a guidance, not a rule, so some areas where bus robbings are rare might decide to keep cash on the bus.

 

[radamfi]

Unfortunately, for rail, they have to have a balance of €20 minimum

Strictly speaking, you only need to have a minimum balance of 16 euro. Yes, 20 euro is deducted on entry, but you are allowed a negative balance as low as -4. For buses, the minimum balance is zero because 4 euro is deducted on entry.

 

[radamfi]

This shows the progress towards cashfree buses for each operator (in Dutch)

https://9292.nl/nieuws/nieuwsoverzicht/overzicht-cashloos-reizen-in-het-ov

 

[HowardGWR]

Strictly speaking, you only need to have a minimum balance of 16 euro. Yes, 20 euro is deducted on entry, but you are allowed a negative balance as low as -4. For buses, the minimum balance is zero because 4 euro is deducted on entry.

I didn't know that, thanks. So if I arrive at Schiphol from England and have €16 minimum balance, the machine should accept my kaartje when I present it? My fare to Huizen is (was) €3.80 IIRC.

 

[radamfi]

So if I arrive at Schiphol from England and have €16 minimum balance, the machine should accept my kaartje when I present it?

Yes. I have touched out with a negative balance meaning that some of my balance has been recouped on my last trip with the card, meaning no need to get a refund.

 

[AlexNL]

Also, if you successfully touch in, you are guaranteed to be able to touch out, regardless of the fare. So if you have a starting balance of 16.00, you can make a trip of 26.00 and finish with a negative balance (-10.00).

This is not true! You can't touch out if your balance is about to fall below € -4.00.

This is the reason why there are mini-TVM's inside the gated areas of stations. If you can't touch out (and the gate doesn't open), you can top up at the machine and then try to go through the gate again.

Of course, on ungated stations you can just throw away the chipkaart and buy a new one - this will set you back € 27,50 (€ 7,50 for the card + € 20 in balance) so it's not really worth your while.

 

[radamfi]

This is not true! You can't touch out if your balance is about to fall below € -4.00.

I've deleted the text from my earlier post. Apologies for the incorrect information.

But still worth doing if it the last trip with the card before expiry and there are no gates.

 

[dutchflyer]

Changes-as above, that ONLY card payment is accepted for tickets sold on the vehicle are underway soon, as also predicted.
ARRIVA will move over to No cash from either 1/12 or 10/12 coming (thats the europe-wide change of timetable sunday). Also for the small volunteer driven ''buurtbus''=community bus (to small villages where big buses are just too big-Province of Noord Brabant has nearly 90 of them).
Connexxion ditto, except for an odd exception. Syntus will be renamed Keolis and ditto to.
Lagging a little behind is QBuzz for Groningen+Drenthe, no info from EBS (between AMSterdam and Hoorn-a very heavy commuter network).
And again: the main method of ''paying'' is by that OV-chipcard. I've spent quite a few long days lately on country buses and there are whole days where the driver does not get one single cash payment. On short peak-only duties they often do not even bother to take the tickets+changecash out. Understandably you from abroad seem to worry, but all in all its even much more customer friendly as what TfL buses currently can offer.
A peculiar case will be on the sectors of international busroutes in Germany (mostly ARRIVA too): I really dont know if this is even allowed in DE and yes, they there do sell loads of cash tickets.
Here in NL there is NO legal need as such to allow any form of payment-as long as your clearly post what is accepted-most shops wont accept notes over 100€. (nor do banks give them out, except on special advance request).
A similar discussion about this already in force on GVB-buses was on this forum recently- what I recall most seemed to think it would be contactless only (like in LON-I assume your only example till now in the UK) and thats just not true. EVEN US cred-cards are accepted (but not AmEx).
Another thing in travellers-societies lately is that many buscompanies (notably again ARRIVA) now want to raise on board ticket prices as this payment is more costly to them as cash.
(in most cases the brunt for those tickets is laid on drivers: they get 1 stock of each of them when they start job and just have to take care of replenishing them by themselves-and then paying in the due amount-when they are in depots). In most cases the nr of different tix as such is limited to 2 or 3. Strangely new-style ticketmachines (which can easily be combined with check in for chipcards) have hardly gained favour here-just 1 or 2 concessions use these.
On TRAINs-after all there is this forum for-sale of tickets is not possible since many years now. The ONLY way to do that for conductors is to write down personal details from ID, the fare and the legally prescribed former 35, now 60€ punishment fee-to be paid afterwards by bank and in time. In genuine dire straits, to be checked by NS afters, the fee can be paid back-on discretion of NS only.
Recently even those conductor held stamping things are now abolished and replaced by electronic control checks on chipcards. This makes claiming back more as justified on long trips by OV-chip more diffult (you just forget to check out after a long trip and afters claim to have exited at a nearby station without barriers-then you get the balance back).

 

[paddington]

Regarding use of cash on trains, I took the Intercity Direct from Schiphol to Rotterdam a few months ago (in 2017), and when the conductor came around, it appeared that some Dutch ladies had not purchased the supplement to travel on the faster train.

As the encounter was in Dutch I didn't understand what they were saying, but he checked their tickets and then after some lengthy discussion they each paid the conductor something in coins only, and he even provided change! Is this supposed to happen?

 

[AlexNL]

The Intercity direct surcharge is a special case, as it's pretty low (€ 2,40) the railways consider a fare evasion penalty (€ 60) to be too harsh.

If you can pay on the spot (either in cash or with card) they charge you € 10. Otherwise you do get a penalty issued.

 

[MisterT]

You can still buy a ticket on board in the Netherlands. It will only cost you €50 + regular ticket price. You can pay in cash or, with a few Train Managers on mainly international trains and Intercity Direct trains, by card (credit cards are also accepted).
When you can't pay on the spot (not enough cash), you'll get an 'Uitstel van Betaling' with your ticket and you'll receive a letter by mail, requesting the outstanding payment.
Depending on the situation (first time without a valid ticket, genuine human error, faulty ticket machine), the 50 euro fine is waived and you'll only have to pay the regular ticket price.
The fine can't be waived when paying on the spot, so when you truly believe that it's not your fault, ask for an 'UvB'. You probably would be able to get your money back when you have already paid in advance, but that would be a lot more hassle

 

[AlexNL]

You can still buy a ticket on board in the Netherlands.

On international trains, yes.

On domestic trains you do not have any choice but for an Uitstel van Betaling. NS Reizigers simply considers it to be too much of a risk for their guards to have to deal with cash.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH, I think we will soon reach the point where the railway could cease accepting cash. A deal with Paypoint/Payzone and one of the pre-paid card companies for a fee-free pre-paid card for railway use only (upgradeable to all use for a small fee) would deal with the edge case of people who can't pay by debit card.

Note: can't not won't. Cash causes so many problems in society that I don't see a benefit to accommodating it. Remove cash and you'll remove *so* much crime.

For those who prefer to draw all their cash out at payday, they could top up their card just before their journey at a suitable newsagent. Paypoint/Payzone stores are everywhere.

 

[MisterT]

On international trains, yes.

On domestic trains you do not have any choice but for an Uitstel van Betaling. NS Reizigers simply considers it to be too much of a risk for their guards to have to deal with cash.

I think that you have been misinformed. It is still possible to do so, also on domestic trains, and there are still passengers doing exactly that.
But most people don't carry that amount of cash on them anymore and choose for the 'UvB' option.

 

[HowardGWR]

Don't want to go too much off topic but try not using cash in a country like Italy!! NL is a very civilised country but, those countries where folk don't want to pay tax, are heavily into cash. In fairness, I have found using plastic much easier in Italy than I used to do. It's so brilliantly efficient travelling by public transport in the Netherlands, but the Dutch don't think much of their rail service. They're spoilt.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Indeed, try not using cash in Rome for the Metro as well.

Caught me out, especially when the machines are selective on what notes they take for certain tickets.

Also Germany can be fun, often ticket machines won't take cards but there is a cash machine right next to them.....

 

[SHD]

Don't want to go too much off topic but try not using cash in a country like Italy!! NL is a very civilised country but, those countries where folk don't want to pay tax, are heavily into cash. In fairness, I have found using plastic much easier in Italy than I used to do. It's so brilliantly efficient travelling by public transport in the Netherlands, but the Dutch don't think much of their rail service. They're spoilt.

Are you seriously suggesting that uncivilised FS employees participate to tax evasion schemes by pocketing cash?

Let me add that while I concur to the description of the Netherlands as a very civilised country, their corporate tax system is strikingly similar to a tax haven and it certainly attracts many folk who do not want to pay tax. Of course I am referring to different folk than an ice cream vendor in Sicily or a hotel owner in Apulia.