• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Disproportionate behaviour by great western rail

Status
Not open for further replies.

disappointed

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2024
Messages
13
Location
Ex111le
On the first of June, my 18 year old daughter travelled from Torre to Paignton on a great western railway train and didn’t purchase a ticket on the platform because they were late and the train was at the station. No guards were on the platform and none went past on the train. At Paignton there are no barriers, but rather than walk away, she attempted to buy a ticket (£3.80). The staff refused her. She is not a fare dodger, she has many receipts of previous journeys.

She was detained and interrogated by the transport police and told she would receive a request for the money and a small administrative fee within three weeks. Two months later, the £90 admin fee plus the original ticket request came in the post, along with other threats of legal action.

After some deliberation we pragmatically decided to pay this admin fee. She does not want to set out on her career with any type of record.

Personally, I travel on trains quite infrequently, but about a third of the time it is a disaster and I am entitled to compensation. I never claim this because I think it is hard to run a railway. I have left many hundreds of pounds in your coffers because I wanted to support what should be an environmentally friendly efficient mode of transport. We should be encouraging people to use it.

No more. I will claim every penny going forward.

My complaint here is that Great Western has missed the point of what they should be doing. They are a public service, heavily subsidised by hundreds of years of taxpayers money. My daughter’s fine is obviously not the right approach and obviously not the right use of the legal system. It is vindictive. Indeed recent events (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cyx0p18kq74o) have shown the rail companies do not understand the legal system. Had we taken this to a real magistrate’s I feel 100% sure we would have won.

Incidentally, a friend in a very similar situation on South Western railway, was treated in the manner you would expect, they bought a ticket on the train and that was the end of the matter. Good for them.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

SuspectUsual

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
6,850
I think you’re misguided. Your daughter broke the law. She had the opportunity to buy a ticket before she travelled - as the law requires - but chose not to

If she had taken her day in court, she would have lost
 

methecooldude

Member
Joined
14 Dec 2015
Messages
420
On the first of June, my 18 year old daughter travelled from Torre to Paignton on a great western railway train and didn’t purchase a ticket on the platform because they were late and the train was at the station. No guards were on the platform and none went past on the train. At Paignton there are no barriers, but rather than walk away, she attempted to buy a ticket (£3.80). The staff refused her. She is not a fare dodger, she has many receipts of previous journeys.
The fact is your daughter did not purchase a ticket before travelling, which unless there was no ticket purchasing facility's at the station, is grounds for a Penalty Fare or prosecution. Doesn't really matter that they were late

She was detained and interrogated by the transport police and told she would receive a request for the money and a small administrative fee within three weeks. Two months later, the £90 admin fee plus the original ticket request came in the post, along with other threats of legal action.
Yep, that is the out of court settlement to avoid it going to court, which you will lose and your daughter will end up with a criminal record
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,998
Unfortunately for your daughter travelling without a ticket is an offence if there was an opportunity to buy one before boarding the train.

Somebody else getting away with it and being sold one on the train on a different occasion doesn't make any difference and I'm sure she would have been found guilty in court unless some technicality was involved, such as the absence of the relevant notices at the station.
 

Mcr Warrior

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
17,318
Believe there's a TVM on platform 1 side (at the station entrance) at Torre, albeit there's no ticket office there.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
17,914
Location
0036
Torre has a ticket machine, this should have been used and a ticket purchased before travel. Choosing not to allow enough time before travel to purchase a ticket does not remove this obligation.

A different train company exercising its discretion towards a different passenger in different circumstances does not mean GWR acted wrongly here.

As the charge has now been paid that is the end of the matter. The passenger should ensure she has a valid ticket going forward. Tickets must be held before travel. Many routes offer e-tickets which can be purchased and displayed on a mobile device.
 

disappointed

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2024
Messages
13
Location
Ex111le
With regards to the law, you are correct, I'm sure.

She is young and made a very simple mistake. She tried to correct this straight away, there was never any illegal intention. This is a predatory use of the law. It does not impress most of the 'normal' people who have heard about this.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
17,914
Location
0036
With regards to the law, you are correct, I'm sure.

She is young and made a very simple mistake. She tried to correct this straight away, there was never any illegal intention. This is a predatory use of the law. It does not impress most of the 'normal' people who have heard about this.
I'm sorry you feel that way.

We are here to advise on the law in this forum so that's as much as we can do.
 

disappointed

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2024
Messages
13
Location
Ex111le
Well, thank you. I appreciate that, island. It is a useful service you offer.

In fact, it was advice from here that encouraged her to pay the 'admin fee' (fine). Which looks like the right choice.

Keep up the good work.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
24,848
I have left many hundreds of pounds in your coffers because I wanted to support what should be an environmentally friendly efficient mode of transport.
To be clear, this is a forum and not a railway company. There may be some railway employees who read and post here but they mostly do so in a personal capacity and are almost certainly in the minority.
 

disappointed

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2024
Messages
13
Location
Ex111le
Yes, that was a cut-n-paste from the complaint I had going with them. I appreciate you are a neutral organisation.

Once again, thanks.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
18,160
Welcome to the forum!

I appreciate why you feel the outcome of this case is overly harsh, on face value I’m inclined to agree.

As others have said, legally speaking you are required to possess a ticket before boarding the train and, however unintentional, your daughter did not possess one. That is a criminal offence (there are some exceptions such as if facilities to purchase a ticket do not exist as the station where you start your journey but they don’t apply on this case). Although comparisons with non railway examples aren’t always relevant it’s a bit like getting a speeding ticket or parking ticket. You can be a very careful driver but occasionally you might get caught out.

Unfortunately the best thing to do is to pay what is being asked and chalk it up to experience. Had you have taken the case to the Magistrates Court you would have lost, however sympathetic the Magistrates might have been they can only rule on what the legal position is.

I always recommend finding cheaper ways to travel by train. For example:

- making use of railcards where applicable
- using retailers offering solit ticketing (such as the forum’s own site)
- claiming delay repast at least some compensation is claimed when a poor service is given
- more ‘expert’ ways to save money are often discussed at fares workshops and forum meals
 

disappointed

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2024
Messages
13
Location
Ex111le
Thanks - all good advice. I think she has a railcard. Also, we paid the pre court settlement weeks ago. I have no argument with the current legal position as stated by the members above. (I happen to think the current law is wrong, and laws do change. They are not written in stone. That is irrelevant here.)

The whole point is that she wasn't trying to avoid paying. She always pays when she can. She was surprised by harshness of the response (as was I).

Why post here? Seems a bit emotive.

I was interested in people's views. Now I have seen some - I feel enlightened. Thank you all.
 

800001

Established Member
Joined
24 Oct 2015
Messages
7,403
Could she not of purchased one on an app whilst on the train?
 

simonw

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2009
Messages
1,412
Could she not of purchased one on an app whilst on the train?
We have seen numerous times that this can also lead to a penalty. A ticket needs to be bought before the train departs.
 

Mcr Warrior

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
17,318
I think you have to buy a few minutes before it leaves. I'm pretty sure she tried that, but it is a really short journey so she may not have had time.
Fairly frequent services between Torre and Paignton at most times of the day on a typical Saturday, normally 2 trains per hour. Wouldn't have had to wait all that long.
 

disappointed

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2024
Messages
13
Location
Ex111le
If she had known how she would have been treated by rail staff she would probably have driven and probably will drive next time.
 

AngusH

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2012
Messages
599
Have I got this right:


- Passenger travels from Torre to Paignton without buying ticket before boarding.

- No ticket checks

- On arrival at Paignton no ticket check.


Choices:

Choice A) Exit station saying nothing

consequences:
- none

Choice B) approach railway staff and try to buy missing ticket

consequences:
- prosecution threat
- Large out of court settlement




This does not seem to be the correct approach surely?

A small penalty or a straightforward purchase would be better to treat
someone who voluntarily indicates their mistake.
 

800001

Established Member
Joined
24 Oct 2015
Messages
7,403
Have I got this right:


- Passenger travels from Torre to Paignton without buying ticket before boarding.

- No ticket checks

- On arrival at Paignton no ticket check.


Choices:

Choice A) Exit station saying nothing

consequences:
- none

Choice B) approach railway staff and try to buy missing ticket

consequences:
- prosecution threat
- Large out of court settlement




This does not seem to be the correct approach surely?
To be it seems the original poster may be missing some element. It says detained and interrogated by the police.

Are BTP normally at Paignton? Or was there a revenue block on?

Police do not normally get involved in cases like this without good reason, normally left to the Revenue staff to take details etc.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
18,160
Have I got this right:


- Passenger travels from Torre to Paignton without buying ticket before boarding.

- No ticket checks

- On arrival at Paignton no ticket check.


Choices:

Choice A) Exit station saying nothing

consequences:
- none

Choice B) approach railway staff and try to buy missing ticket

consequences:
- prosecution threat
- Large out of court settlement




This does not seem to be the correct approach surely?

A small penalty or a straightforward purchase would be better to treat
someone who voluntarily indicates their mistake.
Please feel free to post an alternative model in the appropriate section of the forum and we will be happy to debate it.

While I’m not accusing the OP’s daughter of fare evasion remember that fare evasion on the railway is rife and any proposal will need take account of how the ‘pay when challenged’ passengers should be dealt with. You also need to make sure that any additional staffing costs are factored in.
 

disappointed

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2024
Messages
13
Location
Ex111le
Have I got this right:


- Passenger travels from Torre to Paignton without buying ticket before boarding.

- No ticket checks

- On arrival at Paignton no ticket check.


Choices:

Choice A) Exit station saying nothing

consequences:
- none

Choice B) approach railway staff and try to buy missing ticket

consequences:
- prosecution threat
- Large out of court settlement




This does not seem to be the correct approach surely?

A small penalty or a straightforward purchase would be better to treat
someone who voluntarily indicates their mistake.
You are spot on here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

To be it seems the original poster may be missing some element. It says detained and interrogated by the police.

Are BTP normally at Paignton? Or was there a revenue block on?

Police do not normally get involved in cases like this without good reason, normally left to the Revenue staff to take details etc.
I don't know if they are normally there, but there was some air show on. There were still no checks on the exit. Nothing else is missing.
I don't know how BTP got involved, I think the revenue staff just passed them on.
 

John R

Established Member
Joined
1 Jul 2013
Messages
6,137
Have I got this right:


- Passenger travels from Torre to Paignton without buying ticket before boarding

- No ticket checks

- On arrival at Paignton no ticket check.
I think to be a complete description you need to add a comment to the effect that there was a working ticket machine available to them which they chose not to use. There would also almost certainly have been notices telling passengers to buy before they board.
 
Last edited:

disappointed

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2024
Messages
13
Location
Ex111le
Please feel free to post an alternative model in the appropriate section of the forum and we will be happy to debate it.

While I’m not accusing the OP’s daughter of fare evasion remember that fare evasion on the railway is rife and any proposal will need take account of how the ‘pay when challenged’ passengers should be dealt with. You also need to make sure that any additional staffing costs are factored in.
I'm not sure there is much to debate. I'm not looking for any particular outcome. The people here have been more than forthcoming with their views.
I was disappointed with GWR behaviour (hence the username) and I wanted to see if other people thought this was reasonable behaviour.
Some do, some don't.
Some of this will be just because of entrenched positions, some will be because they have considered the situation.
Thank you all.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
18,160
Moderator note - if a post is causing concern then please do not reply to it but instead report it using the ‘report’ button in the bottom left corner of the post.

This will alert the moderating team who will look into it.
 

John R

Established Member
Joined
1 Jul 2013
Messages
6,137
You are spot on here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


I don't know if they are normally there, but there was some air show on. There were still no checks on the exit.
It surprises me that there weren't checks on the exit. It would be normal practice when there is such an event (eg Weston Carnival, Glastonbury, events at the Principality Stadium (operated by TfW) ) for there to be an absolute block at the exit to ensure that everyone leaving the station has a ticket. Indeed, every year we see a couple of cases of people who arrive at Castle Cary (for Glastonbury) only to find that they are picked up for not having a ticket.
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
29,684
Location
LBK
There would probably have been checks on the exit there for such a large event, and that is why the British Transport Police would have been there and assisted with the ticketless traveller.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
11,270
Location
West Wiltshire
Personally, I travel on trains quite infrequently, but about a third of the time it is a disaster and I am entitled to compensation. I never claim this because I think it is hard to run a railway. I have left many hundreds of pounds in your coffers because I wanted to support what should be an environmentally friendly efficient mode of transport. We should be encouraging people to use it.

No more. I will claim every penny going forward.
Unfortunately the railway sees this as ticketless travel and easy pickings to get an administrative fee.

They don't play the look after each other approach, you might have let GWR off repaying hundreds in compensation, but they work in little silos, don't care they are already pounds up, so in future claim every penny even if your train is just 16 minutes late or more. Make them use lots of admin time in processing compensation, get your moneys worth going forward. Treat them as they treat you and accept have to go along with their stance, ignore your pride not claiming.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top