Displaced 185s..

[Nym]

It was included in NR's electrification plan for the area IIRC.

 

[tbtc]

It was included in NR's electrification plan for the area IIRC.

Fair enough, I'm just surprised that they are keener on electrifying a line with no regular services on it instead of wiring some other routes (that would directly replace DMUs).

I appreciate that its a potential diversion, but the same could be said of many other routes...

 

[northwichcat]

Could it be to do with access to and from Neville Hill for EMUs?

 

[Nym]

I think it's more to do with getting the ECML diversion through Pontefract electrified for diversions rather than anything else, the TPE part of it is a nice addition, that and being able to run EMUs to Glasshauton can't be a bad thing either.

 

[LE Greys]

Not a lot. It's still expected that 185s will indirectly replace Pacers but no indication of eaxctly how. However, it is now expected that re-engineered 365s will run the electric services on North TPE opposed to a new order, with 365s being replaced by IEP.

That's a bit ridiculous! Imagine having a 395 calling at Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn North, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potter's Bar and Finsbury Park. Some nice 379s will do fine down there, leaving the 365s to squeeze out the remaining 317s from Hornsey. OK, I wouldn't mind seeing the odd IEP on the Cambridge non-stoppers or the Peterborough commuter fasts, but not calling all stations between Welwyn and Cambridge.

As for where the 185s should end up, we have three options. The Highland (where they would be non-standard, but would play with the gradiants), FGW for South Devon/Portsmouth-Cardiff (they would do fine over Dainton and Rattery, but a bit over-powered), XC (same power unit as the Voyagers, but most lines fairly flat) or SWT (similar to 444s/450s, but again it's fairly flat, although they will suit the long 100 mph blast to Woking). With a relatively small number, my money's on the Highland. A large number would suggest XC. However, there will inevitably be a few retained to strengthen services on South TPX.

 

[northwichcat]

As for where the 185s should end up, we have three options. The Highland (where they would be non-standard, but would play with the gradiants), FGW for South Devon/Portsmouth-Cardiff (they would do fine over Dainton and Rattery, but a bit over-powered), XC (same power unit as the Voyagers, but most lines fairly flat) or SWT (similar to 444s/450s, but again it's fairly flat, although they will suit the long 100 mph blast to Woking). With a relatively small number, my money's on the Highland. A large number would suggest XC. However, there will inevitably be a few retained to strengthen services on South TPX.

Or option 4 they don't relocate to another part of the country and are used on different hilly routes such as Scarborough to Blackpool, Liverpool to Norwich, Leeds to Victoria via Halifax and Manchester to Buxton. The Sprinters used on those services currently are then cascaded down to replace Pacers.

Don't forget there's also two North West routes that 185s are used on currently that aren't set to be completely electrified.

If Scotrail take them I think it will have to be at the expense of losing their 170 fleet.

 

[Nym]

Thanks jcollins, would that be following the kind of service framework I set out and calculated the stock needed for above?

Sufficent stock for...

MIA - Lakes (8 Dia.) CURRENT
MIA / Liv. - Clee (8 / 10 Dia.) CURRENT
MIA - Calder Semis (8 Dia.)
Scarb - BPN (8 Dia.)

Makes: 32 - 34 Dia. out of a capacity of 45 (6 service spare)

Had a short pick of others that could be added.

MAN - Buxton would be a nice addition at 3 Dia for 1tph and 6 Dia. for 2tph.
LDS - CAR via Ribblehead would also be a nice addition at 3 - 4 Dia.
The additional Scarb - YRK shuttle would be 1 or 2.

Then theres doubling up of peak services, think thats the whole 45/51 allocated, if it where MAN - BUX included in the above list, at 1tph, it would leave 10 'spares'

Theres also possibly running MAN - BUX from Liverpool to Buxton instead, via the CLC, keeping a Semi Fast on that route.

Theres no shortage of routes round the current depots that warrant stock like a 185.

These 10 'spares' could be deployed on for portion working on the Southport services with the Lakes services, giving 6x23m 1tph 185 between BON and MIA, splitting at BON running on to Southport & Barrow or Windermere.

So using the unallocated from the 1st list as...

Starting with 32 allocated:

Southport - MIA (Portion working with Lakes - MIA) 4 Dia.

Makes 36

Liverpool L St - CLC - MAN - Buxton 2hrs 1tph makes another 4 Dia.

Makes 40 Allocated

Extra peak services to Buxton and strengthening of other peaks across the Calder Valley takes us up to 45 easilly, 45/51 allocated, any additional slack for more doubling up between Doncaster and Manchester...

 

[tbtc]

If it's NR's prefered option of Guide Bridge & Victoria - Leeds, Leeds - Castleford - York, Leeds - York, Leeds - Hull and Northerllerton - Middlesbrough...

Could it be to do with access to and from Neville Hill for EMUs?

I think it's more to do with getting the ECML diversion through Pontefract electrified for diversions rather than anything else, the TPE part of it is a nice addition, that and being able to run EMUs to Glasshauton can't be a bad thing either.

I'm not sure what the plan is, because the list you've given doesn't include Pontefract/ Glasshoughton?

Plus if Leeds - York is wired then there's already an ECML diversion (as well as easy access to Neville Hill from both sides).

That's a bit ridiculous! Imagine having a 395 calling at Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn North, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potter's Bar and Finsbury Park. Some nice 379s will do fine down there

379s would be better on the Great Northern, due to their corridors allowing them to run better in multiple (whilst the TPE services maybe won't need to be doubled up if they are four coaches?)

Hence my suggestion in the past for 357s heading north (where single EMUs are more appropriate, whilst corridor connected EMUs work in multiple around London).

If Scotrail take them I think it will have to be at the expense of losing their 170 fleet

I think that would be fair, if it was "all the 185s" heading north and "all the Scotrail 170s heading south". That would then allow Northern to gain other 170s spared by other electrification (like the TPE nine, potentially the Southern 171s if Oxted is done) so Northern would get a bigger fleet of them.

 

[swt_passenger]

That's a bit ridiculous! Imagine having a 395 calling at Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn North, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potter's Bar and Finsbury Park. Some nice 379s will do fine down there, leaving the 365s to squeeze out the remaining 317s from Hornsey. OK, I wouldn't mind seeing the odd IEP on the Cambridge non-stoppers or the Peterborough commuter fasts, but not calling all stations between Welwyn and Cambridge.

379s won't be able to run in 125 mph paths between Kings Cross and Hitchin/Cambridge Jn. That is exactly why IEPs (which are not actually 395s as you imply) are being introduced for Cambridge/Kings Lynn services, as discussed in various other threads recently. No one has ever suggested that these IEPs will stop at the stations you mention.

 

[Bevan Price]

How / when /where any spare 185's will be redeployed after electrification will doubtless be decided by the DfT, rather than any TOC. However, they are high-powered dmu's, designed for operation at up to 90 - 100 mph, and they are overpowered (and too fuel-hungry) for use on stopping services. So, where could they best be used ? My suggestions would be:
1. XC, using pairs of 185's to replace single 220's on some of the busier services. The displaced 220's then being used in pairs on other services.
2. XC, possibly Nottingham - Cardiff services. Or,
3. Waterloo - Exeter. The displaced 159's could then be used to augment / replace 2 car dmu's on, say, Cardiff / Bristol - Portsmouth, or Calder Valley services.

If they are ever downgraded to slower services, it would make economic sense to convert the centre cars to unpowered trailers, to reduce fuel consumption.

 

[Nym]

The're not fast enough for XC, and can't work a 4 car formation like parts of XC need.

The best off that list I can see is sending them all to SWT to be all of their Diesel Fleet, possibly handing the Reading - Gatwick Airport services over to SWT aswell, if there is enough in the extra bits of fleet. Jumping from 41 to 51 units should provide enough spare to take over Gatwick Airport & Redhill to Reading, combined with electrification of the Thames Valley Lines, meaning nothing Diesel for FGW (Possibly take on Reading - Basingstoke if theres space)

Sending some of FGW's fleet and all of SWT's current diesel fleet to Northern / TPE to replace the 185s.

 

[ValleyLines142]

A very well worded and argued post you've put together there.

And before that some of the services on the Manchester to Preston route were operated by Virgin, and the rest operated by North West Trains/First North Western. As the constant merry-go-round of franchise re-arrangement has proven, the name on the side of the train doesn't really mean much.

If the journey time and the stopping pattern remains the same following electrification, then what's the difference?


We'll have to wait and see what happens with the TPE and Northern franchises after their current expiry date to start to get an idea of what is likely to happen with the Blackpool services, but it's not impossible by the time that the Bolton route is electrified that the TPE services will not be separate from the Northern ones.

As the Bolton route isn't going to be electrified until the end of 2016, then there's still likely to be a few years of 185 operation yet (until the end of the current TPE franchise at least), but once the wires are up to Blackpool then I doubt that the 319s are going to be split between two separate operators to run the route.


The 319s currently operate, as is the essence of the Thameslink operation, from Bedford to Brighton, which is a heck of a long way, even if, granted, there are very few passengers, if any, who make the full journey.

I'm not trying to take sides or argue in any way as I'm sure you'll understand, just merely expressing what I think would be more logic the name on the side of the train is only the operator but surely it's still been designed for a purpose? Electrification will make them slightly faster won't it? Probably just under an hour to do a Blackpool-Manchester. Yes, I've been on 319's from Bedford - Brighton, but most of these are now operated by 377's, which are much more suitable; a bit like up here, to be replaced by 379s/380s

 

[DesiroDom]

The thing is FTPX only got the units in 2006 so why they want to get rid of them would be very strange because there was also talk of them running to Morpeth and back on place of the 142's, because they sit for an hour in Newcastle when they could provide a service allowing small numbers of Northern Rail's fleet to be cast off they also take up platform space which begs the question could they be used for other services North of Newcastle.

 

[ValleyLines142]

The thing is FTPX only got the units in 2006 so why they want to get rid of them would be very strange because there was also talk of them running to Morpeth and back on place of the 142's, because they sit for an hour in Newcastle when they could provide a service allowing small numbers of Northern Rail's fleet to be cast off they also take up platform space which begs the question could they be used for other services North of Newcastle.

Exactly! They're only 5-6 years old! Why would Blackpool services want to be replaced by 319's. What is the reason?

The Morpeth idea sounds good, 142's can be displaced on other services then, and could even do Manchester Airport - Morpeth

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The thing is FTPX only got the units in 2006 so why they want to get rid of them would be very strange because there was also talk of them running to Morpeth and back on place of the 142's, because they sit for an hour in Newcastle when they could provide a service allowing small numbers of Northern Rail's fleet to be cast off they also take up platform space which begs the question could they be used for other services North of Newcastle.

Do they? I can see the 10~min turnarounds, are they worked by separate units? We learn something new everyday I guess.

 

[DesiroDom]

Do they? I can see the 10~min turnarounds, are they worked by separate units? We learn something new everyday I guess.

Yeah because usually they come to Newcastle then shut down till the next service which can be sometimes an hour two so would it not be better for them to run diagrams to Morpeth dispelling the pacers an providing 100 mph running which would then allow other services by XC or EC to be thought of due to more route availability

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Yeah because usually they come to Newcastle then shut down till the next service which can be sometimes an hour two so would it not be better for them to run diagrams to Morpeth dispelling the pacers an providing 100 mph running which would then allow other services by XC or EC to be thought of due to more route availability

I suspect that up to 100mph (in lieu of 75mph) over such a short distance wouldn't make a massive difference to IC workings, they tend to be timetabled to avoid problems like that. The NCL-MIA services are hourly, and have 9 minutes (if stopping at CLS in the Down) or 12 minutes before the return at xx15. Are these worked by the same train or the set from an hour before? I have never seen 2 185s together at Newcastle, but I could be wrong.

 

[DesiroDom]

I suspect that up to 100mph (in lieu of 75mph) over such a short distance wouldn't make a massive difference to IC workings, they tend to be timetabled to avoid problems like that. The NCL-MIA services are hourly, and have 9 minutes (if stopping at CLS in the Down) or 12 minutes before the return at xx15. Are these worked by the same train or the set from an hour before? I have never seen 2 185s together at Newcastle, but I could be wrong.

Sometimes there are 185's at least two in Newcastle with one being prepped for service and also Northern leaves xx15 past the hour similar to when the 185's leave for Manchester Airport and they leave Morpeth xx50 (Northern)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Fair enough, but then you'd have to cover Metrocentre-Newcastle with something or cut the service, so little would be gain stock (or service)-wise.

 

[DesiroDom]

Fair enough, but then you'd have to cover Metrocentre-Newcastle with something or cut the service, so little would be gain stock (or service)-wise.

I think they should be used on the 0823 because that train is always packed to the rafters and with 156's going elsewhere the route needs to have longer trains especially on that service.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Do they? I can see the 10~min turnarounds, are they worked by separate units? We learn something new everyday I guess.

Whenever i have caught TPE to newcastle or back (from leeds use it to visit girlfriend) there has been 2 units, so one waits an hour and 10 minutes to form a service so for 10 minutes there is 2 units, one preparing to leave one shutting down for an hour.

Exactly! They're only 5-6 years old! Why would Blackpool services want to be replaced by 319's. What is the reason?

Because the 185s should never of been there in the first place. They werent ordered for it, it didn't used to be part of the TPE franchise it was FNW. Really i would of put it in the hand of 156s not 185s.
(i think im right here)

 

[ValleyLines142]

Because the 185s should never of been there in the first place. They werent ordered for it, it didn't used to be part of the TPE franchise it was FNW. Really i would of put it in the hand of 156s not 185s.
(i think im right here)

But the route would gradualy have been replaced with modern stock anyway surely.

 

[YorkshireBear]

But the route would gradualy have been replaced with modern stock anyway surely.

Well yeah but it would most likely of been a progression from 156 to 319 which wouldnt be so bad, then eventually youll get new EMUs after the service has proved itself.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Well yeah but it would most likely of been a progression from 156 to 319 which wouldnt be so bad, then eventually youll get new EMUs after the service has proved itself.

Hmm, maybe. I'd like to see 380s on the route.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Hmm, maybe. I'd like to see 380s on the route.

Its not econmically viable to buy new trains for northern area unless in a pte (manchester pte like their trams) Scotland is one of the few places outside NSE and Intercity to recieve new trains recently ( i am chucking TPE into intercity but while manchester blackpool is operated by TPE it is NOT a TPE route).

This is not me complaining i am happy to have second hand trains.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Its not econmically viable to buy new trains for northern area unless in a pte (manchester pte like their trams) Scotland is one of the few places outside NSE and Intercity to recieve new trains recently ( i am chucking TPE into intercity but while manchester blackpool is operated by TPE it is NOT a TPE route).

This is not me complaining i am happy to have second hand trains.

Its due for electrification though isn't it? So am just thinking of rolling stock for the route.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Its due for electrification though isn't it? So am just thinking of rolling stock for the route.

Yes it is due for electrification but stock if provided from central government (rather than PTE funded a la WYPTE class 333s) then you wont get new stock on lines like this.

 

[tbtc]

I suspect that up to 100mph (in lieu of 75mph) over such a short distance wouldn't make a massive difference to IC workings, they tend to be timetabled to avoid problems like that. The NCL-MIA services are hourly, and have 9 minutes (if stopping at CLS in the Down) or 12 minutes before the return at xx15. Are these worked by the same train or the set from an hour before? I have never seen 2 185s together at Newcastle, but I could be wrong.

It does tend to happen - http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/6041253539/in/photostream - but there's only a short "crossover" between one arriving and the other leaving. A late running northbound train means they pass somewhere further south.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Yes it is due for electrification but stock if provided from central government (rather than PTE funded a la WYPTE class 333s) then you wont get new stock on lines like this.

Its frustrating the First Class 185's will be demoralised into 319s!!

 

[Lampshade]

Because the 185s should never of been there in the first place. They werent ordered for it, it didn't used to be part of the TPE franchise it was FNW. Really i would of put it in the hand of 156s not 185s.
(i think im right here)

Manchester - Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere were all 175 operated under FNW and Manchester - Newcastle/Middlesbrough/Sunderland/etc were all 158 under TPE/ATN (as was). The 'TPE' franchise was specified to incorporate all these routes, so yes the 185s were ordered for the Blackpool services.

Its not econmically viable to buy new trains for northern area unless in a pte...

Is this based on fares disparity? It's been established that Northern's own fares are on a par with those around the South East (Preston - Blackburn is on a par with Canterbury - Faversham). And if we're talking PTE fares then Bradford - Wakefield is on a par with Birmingham - Coventry (same fare, same distance), yet London Midland get new stock aplenty.

It's not that it's not economically viable, it's lack of political will to invest.